Are works a by-product of faith?

[Cam-masta]

Do works naturally flow from faith, or does it take human effort to work? If it takes any human effort, is this Pelagianism? If it takes Faith and than works automatically following from true faith, is this the “Perseverance of the Saints” of TULIP/Calvinist theology? The reason I am asking, is because I got into a big debate with an evangelical friend regarding this theology. It is quite a heavy topic isn’t it? I tried to point out St. James 2:21-22: “Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works…” but it didn’t jive with him. Your thoughts?

 

[COPLAND_3]

Faith produces works, but works comes from our free-will. Just as James points out, we can have faith without works. Calvinist theology seems to reject the idea of free will. But Scripture also says that without faith it is impossible to please God. So we can have all the great works in the world but without faith (that is rejecting faith, not ignorance) it is done in vain as far as reaping eternal life.

 

[MDK]

Do works naturally flow from faith, or does it take human effort to work? If it takes any human effort, is this Pelagianism? If it takes Faith and than works automatically following from true faith, is this the “Perseverance of the Saints” of TULIP/Calvinist theology? The reason I am asking, is because I got into a big debate with an evangelical friend regarding this theology. It is quite a heavy topic isn’t it? I tried to point out St. James 2:21-22: “Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works…” but it didn’t jive with him. Your thoughts?

It’s very simple in that we are saved (justified) by God’s Grace alone (but, not faith alone). Our salvation is by God’s Grace, through faith working in love. This is the Catholic position. Do not stray from this, no matter what the anti-Catholics say, and you will be fine.

The irony here is that the Scriptures were written by Catholics in the context of Catholicism for Catholics. The Church chose which inspired Scriptures to put in the Bible and which uninspired writings to leave out. Muuuuuuuch later, we have people trying to interpret for themselves to tell the author of the Bible what it means. This is insane. The Church has taught faithfully for almost 2000 years, which includes before NT Scriptures were even written, never teaching error in faith and morals. We have had and can have the Church without the Bible. But, the Bible never existed without the Church (the one Church built by Christ). Anyone basing their church on their own interpretation of Catholic Scriptures is just wrong… putting the cart before the horse. And, Scriptures are indeed Catholic, intended for the whole world, but the whole world is expected to be in God’s one Church, the Catholic Church. Ask this person why they want to tell us what our book means? When someone takes it out of the context of Catholicism, Scriptures really cannot be properly understood.

Why is it that the only place in Scriptures that “faith alone” appears, is to plainly say that salvation is not by faith alone (James 2:24) ? There is a good reason for this.

 

[MDK]

Do works naturally flow from faith, or does it take human effort to work? If it takes any human effort, is this Pelagianism? If it takes Faith and than works automatically following from true faith, is this the “Perseverance of the Saints” of TULIP/Calvinist theology? The reason I am asking, is because I got into a big debate with an evangelical friend regarding this theology. It is quite a heavy topic isn’t it? I tried to point out St. James 2:21-22: “Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works…” but it didn’t jive with him. Your thoughts?

A better question for your evangelical friend is to establish authority. Ask which comes first, the Church or the Bible? If he says Bible, then ask him why the Bible discusses the Church, as it already existed at the time the Bible was written. Then ask him when his church was started, after the Bible? Then ask who started his church… a person who is not God? Then ask whose interpretations of Scriptures is his church based on? See, it is by men’s interpretations of God’s word, that all these Bible churches were built. None of them is justifiable, as Christ built one Church for us all. Remember to point out that the Church started by Christ existed at the time the Bible was written. The members of that Church wrote the Scriptures. Christ built a Church, which wrote the Scriptures. Christ didn’t have a Bible written so that a church could be started. Then, ask him/her why they don’t believe in what Christ established? Is Christ’s Church not good enough for them? They should be on the defensive, as we have something to protect, but they are attacking it. They literally have no justifiable reason for being apart from the Church. Even if it came down to lack of love for Christ, this is not justifiable.

The Catholic Church is the only Church in the world which was built by Christ, with the Prime Minister of Christ’s earthly Kingdom as father to his people. The ultimate father is our Father in Heaven. We have a King in Jesus. We have the Holy Spirit protecting the Church from teaching error. We have a Queen of Heaven, our spiritual mother. We have the Prime Minister of the King Jesus here as visible head of Christ’s Kingdom, while the King is away. This same scenario is found in OT Scriptures as a foreshadowing of the real to come.

 

[Cam-masta]

Thanks for your answers.

 

[Crimson_Seraph]

Faith produces works, but works comes from our free-will. Just as James points out, we can have faith without works. Calvinist theology seems to reject the idea of free will. But Scripture also says that without faith it is impossible to please God. So we can have all the great works in the world but without faith (that is rejecting faith, not ignorance) it is done in vain as far as reaping eternal life.

I actually agree with this statement.

 

[Strategery]

Faith produces works, but works comes from our free-will. Just as James points out, we can have faith without works. Calvinist theology seems to reject the idea of free will. But Scripture also says that without faith it is impossible to please God. So we can have all the great works in the world but without faith (that is rejecting faith, not ignorance) it is done in vain as far as reaping eternal life.

I only agree with this to a point. There is a difference between “good works” and works of faith. Put another way, there is a difference between worldy “good” and spiritual “good”.

So … you can’t just do a bunch of worldly good things to get to heaven.

On the spiritual level, IMO the attempt to separate faith from works is futile. As you say, faith itself is a spiritual work - an act of will. Christ himself teaches us in John 9 that if we remain in him, we become his disciples – we will know the truth, and the truth will set us free. So many people fail to see the conditional nature of that passage.

In John 3 Christ identifies disobedience as the opposite of belief. This of course means that obedience (ie, a work) to his commands ***is ***faith.

In James 1 we are told to be doers of the word, not hearers only. Later in James we are told that faith without works is dead (ie, ***isn’t ***faith). No wonder Luther wanted that out of the bible.

Really, it’s so sad. The attempt to separate faith from spiritual works is such a bone of contention among Christians, and the ensuing discussions are often so un-charitable. Satan must be so happy.