Aren't We All Saints? Canonizing Saints Questioned

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Triple_H

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In your Saints page-
catholic.com/library/mary_saints.asp
you somehow didn’t defend one of the hardest practices for Protestants to accept, the canonization of Saints. This is because the Bible makes it clear we are all Saints, and there doesn’t appear to be any Early Church tradition of canonizing Saints-

Rom 1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called [to be] saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Rom 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what [is] the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to [the will of] God.
Rom 15:25 But now I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints.
1Cr 14:33 For God is not [the author] of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
Eph 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
Eph 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
Phl 1:1 Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:
Col 1:26 [Even] the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
1Th 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.
Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Those are just a few of many more verses that refer to Saints. Doesn’t that make it clear to you that we are all Saints? How can you Biblically and Historically defend the practice of canonizing Saints? I would like the Apologists at Catholic.com to make write another article for the Saints section of their website that covers this topic.
 
We are not all living Saints as the Bible implied. If that is the case There would be no need on the teaching of Satan. Rom 11:22 “provided that you remain in his kindness; otherwise you will be cut off.” I would not recomend using “Bible Alone” in questioning beliefs Because the early church did not have a Bible. The word Bible is not even mentioned in the Bible. Scripture that they refer to is the Old Testament. We are not all Saints. There are those among us and throughout history who have lived a “Saints” life. They way to be a Saint is to be immitators of Christ. Live out the Gospel. Perserve to the end and do good works.

Andyz
 
We are saints (holy ones) by virtue of our baptisms when our past sins were forgiven and we became temples of the Holy Spirit and citizens of a holy nation (the Church). However, many of us must still “strive for … the holiness without which no one can see the Lord” (Hebrews 12:14). The author of Hebrews bids us, “Remember your leaders, those who spoke to you the word of God; consider the outcome of their life, and imitate their faith.” (Hebrews 13:7) Now, doesn’t it make sense for the Church to give us an authoritative list (canon) of and to set aside one day each year to remember each of those saintly saints whose holy, faithful lives are worthy of imitation?
 
St. Paul admonishes the Galatians for so soon deserting the gospel of Christ and exhorts them to return. He admonishes the Corinthians for having factions among themselves. I’m sure he didn’t consider them saints at that particular moment. But those who persevere in the Faith are considered ‘saints,’ although the term is not used in the same way as the modern sense, since those in the community of believers were not yet in heaven.

During the persecutions, the martyrs were highly regarded, and comemorations were held at their gravesites. Some of them were considered “saints” in the popular sense simply by popular acclaim. There was at that time no formal canonization process. It developed later.

We canot expect all of church history and all of church development to be laid out in the bible. The canonization procedures were developed by the church, as it had the authority to do so.

JimG
 
Saint means holy one. As posted earlier, all baptised are. But, we are the Church Militant, and as such we can fall from grace. It is those holy ones in heaven that are Saints forever. Thus, we can properly adress them as Saint. That said, how do we know who is and is not in heaven? Can you judge the hearts of men? No, but through Divine Revelation, we can state that some people are without a doubt in Heaven. All other dead, we are unsure of their location.
 
One aspect of canonized saints, aside form the miracle, is a life of heroic virtue. Most of us fall rather short of that in our lives even if we persevere to the end in the faith and in grace.
 
Well, yes, the short answer is that all who have been baptized and sanctified (made holy) are saints. Indeed, St. Paul does seem to call the people he is addressing saints. But that doesn’t mean that they will always remain saints (this has been commented on by others; people can fall from grace). When the Church speaks of canonized saints, she speaks of people that we know are in heaven, and thus will always remain saints.
 
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Triple_H:
In your Saints page-
catholic.com/library/mary_saints.asp
you somehow didn’t defend one of the hardest practices for Protestants to accept, the canonization of Saints. This is because the Bible makes it clear we are all Saints, and there doesn’t appear to be any Early Church tradition of canonizing Saints-

Rom 1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called [to be] saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Rom 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what [is] the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to [the will of] God.
Rom 15:25 But now I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints.
1Cr 14:33 For God is not [the author] of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
Eph 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
Eph 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
Phl 1:1 Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:
Col 1:26 [Even] the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
1Th 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.
Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Those are just a few of many more verses that refer to Saints. Doesn’t that make it clear to you that we are all Saints? How can you Biblically and Historically defend the practice of canonizing Saints? I would like the Apologists at Catholic.com to make write another article for the Saints section of their website that covers this topic.
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I am quite sure you don’t understand what it means for the Church to Canonize a Saint. You say we are all Saints and yes we are all called to Sanctity. But it seems there is an underlying misunderstanding on your part, in that you think the Church believes it can “Makes” Saints and that ONLY those thus Canonized are actually Saints.

That is not the case at all. When the Church Canonizes a Saint it is a recognition by the Church that the person in question lived a Saintly life, a life of Holiness and they are named such as an example so we may “consider the outcome of their life, and imitate their faith.” (Hebrews 13:7)
 
yes, we are all saints. (small “s”), just as Jesus told us to be holy.
Think of the canonization of Saints (Large “S”) as being on the honor roll in school. All of us are students, but some students do well than others, and need recognition.
Also, think of the names we place on a tablet of those who died in war, or the victims of 9/11. They need to be remembered as well. Its something we can look up to and admire.
Would you want you kid to admire some athelete who contacts AIDS or claims he bed down 500 females, or would you rather that they imitate Christ or one of His Apostles?
 
The Church does teach that all Christians are, in some sense, saints, i.e. “holy ones.” That’s why in the Apostles’ Creed, we confess: “I beleive in . . . the holy Catholic Church, the communion of saints.” These are not two different articles, but the same. The Catholic Church is the Communion of Saints.

That having been said, Christians in heaven are saints in the fullst sense of the word, for they no longer have their holiness blemished. The Church has done for the word “saint” what all Christians have done for the word “martyr.”

Did you know that all Christians are martyrs? That’s because we are all wittnesses of the Gospel of Christ, and the word “martyr” is simply the Greek word for “Witness.” However, even Protestants have no problem usually reserving this word almost exclusively to those who suffer and die for their witness. That’s because martyrs are witnesses in the truest sense of the word, to the extreme, over and above other Christians.

Ditto with Saints.
 
And canonization does have its roots in the early Church. According to the Catholic Encyclopedia:
In the circular epistle of the Church of Smyrna (Eus., Hist. Eccl., IV, xxiii) we find mention of the religious celebration of the day on which St. Polycarp suffered martyrdom (23 February, 155); and the words of the passage exactly express the main purpose which the Church has in the celebration of such anniversaries:
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We have at last gathered his bones, which are dearer to us than priceless gems and purer than gold, and laid them to rest where it was befitting they should lie. And if it be possible for us to assemble again, may God grant us to celebrate the birthday of his martyrdom with gladness, thus to recall the memory of those who fought in the glorious combat, and to teach and strengthen by his example, those who shall come after us.
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This anniversary celebration and veneration of the martyrs was a service of thanksgiving and congratulation, a token and an evidence of the joy of those who engaged in it (Muratori, de Paradiso, x), and its general diffusion explains why Tertullian, though asserting with the Chiliasts that the departed just would obtain eternal glory only after the general resurrection of the body, admitted an exception for the martyrs (De Resurrectione Carnis, xliii).

It must be obvious, however, that while private moral certainty of their sanctity and possession of heavenly glory may suffice for private veneration of the saints, it cannot suffice for public and common acts of that kind. No member of a social body may, independently of its authority, perform an act proper to that body. It follows naturally that for the public veneration of the saints the ecclesiastical authority of the pastors and rulers of the Church was constantly required. The Church had at heart, indeed, the honour of the martyrs, but she did not therefore grant liturgical honours indiscriminately to all those who had died for the Faith. St. Optatus of Mileve, writing at the end of the fourth century, tells us (De Schism, Donat., I, xvi, in P.L., XI, 916-917) of a certain noble lady, Lucilla, who was reprehended by Caecilianus, Archdeacon of Carthage, for having kissed before Holy Communion the bones of one who was either not a martyr or whose right to the title was unproved.

The decision as to the martyr having died for his faith in Christ, and the consequent permission of worship, lay originally with the bishop of the place in which he had borne his testimony. The bishop inquired into the motive of his death and, finding he had died a martyr, sent his name with an account of his martyrdom to other churches, especially neighboring ones, so that, in event of approval by their respective bishops, the cultus of the martyr might extend to their churches also, and that the faithful, as we read of St. Ignatius in the “Acts” of his martyrdom (Ruinart, Acta Sincera Martyrum, 19) "might hold communion with the generous martyr of Christ (generoso Christi martyri communicarent). Martyrs whose cause, so to speak, had been discussed, and the fame of whose martyrdom had been confirmed, were known as proved (vindicati) martyrs. As far as the word is concerned it may probably not antedate the fourth century, when it was introduced in the Church at Carthage; but the fact is certainly older. In the earlier ages, therefore, this worship of the saints was entirely local and passed from one church to another with the permission of their bishops. This is clear from the fact that in none of the ancient Christian cemeteries are there found paintings of martyrs other than those who had suffered in that neighborhood. It explains, also, almost the universal veneration very quickly paid to some martyrs, e.g., St. Lawrence, St. Cyprian of Carthage, Pope St. Sixtus of Rome [Duchesne, Origines du culte chrétien (Paris, 1903), 284].
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I understand better now. But doesn’t the Catholic Church canonizing Saints mean that we are allowed to pray to them? Don’t all people in Heaven get to pray for us, and have us pray to them?
 
Saints/agioiv It is also translated out as “holy ones.” And if you are living a holy life then you would be living the life of a saint. But if you are not living a holy life then you would not be living the life of a saint.

That is our goal, and we can use those who the Church has recognized as holy ones for examples for our own lives.
 
I understand better now. But doesn’t the Catholic Church canonizing Saints mean that we are allowed to pray to them? Don’t all people in Heaven get to pray for us, and have us pray to them?
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We can pray for anyone, and request anyone in Heaven to pray for us. The Saints are just officially recognized as certainly being in Heaven, and are therefore a common subject of prayer for all people. There actually are a number of prayers that invoke everyone in Heaven to pray on our behalf; the list of Saints isn’t a limiting one, just an official one for use in common, public functions and recognition.
 
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