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adrian1
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What are the best philosophical and theological arguments against reincarnation?
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ProdglArchitect
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Well, a philosophical argument would be:
Given that the reincarnated individual has no knowledge of their previous life, reincarnation is no different than obliteration with the creation of a new soul immediately afterwards. It is ultimately pointless, as, lacking the context of your previous lives, you would not be able to act on any of the knowledge that is meant to be gained through the process.
A more science-based argument against it is simply that there is more life on Earth now than ever before so, unless souls are being created, there is no way reincarnation could account for the world’s population.
Theologically, it just makes no sense, and also removes any real reason to strive for goodness. Yeah, sure, I might suffer for a little while if I steal or lie or cheat, but ultimately I just get another chance, so who cares? Only the worst of the worst are prevented from reincarnating, so as long as I’m not that bad, I’ll be fine. The concept of reincarnation removes the necessity of doing good and following God / the gods (given that most believers of reincarnation are also Pagan.) Sure some people do strive to do better because it’ll earn them some benefit in the next life, but they have no guarantee of what their life will be, so it’s ultimately a blind endeavor driven almost entirely by fear.
Given that the reincarnated individual has no knowledge of their previous life, reincarnation is no different than obliteration with the creation of a new soul immediately afterwards. It is ultimately pointless, as, lacking the context of your previous lives, you would not be able to act on any of the knowledge that is meant to be gained through the process.
A more science-based argument against it is simply that there is more life on Earth now than ever before so, unless souls are being created, there is no way reincarnation could account for the world’s population.
Theologically, it just makes no sense, and also removes any real reason to strive for goodness. Yeah, sure, I might suffer for a little while if I steal or lie or cheat, but ultimately I just get another chance, so who cares? Only the worst of the worst are prevented from reincarnating, so as long as I’m not that bad, I’ll be fine. The concept of reincarnation removes the necessity of doing good and following God / the gods (given that most believers of reincarnation are also Pagan.) Sure some people do strive to do better because it’ll earn them some benefit in the next life, but they have no guarantee of what their life will be, so it’s ultimately a blind endeavor driven almost entirely by fear.
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openmind77
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It is true that a person does not have knowledge of previous lives. That is because the person depends on the brain for his memory and that was formed in this life and only remembers what it experienced in this life. However, the soul of the person remembers all its lives and tries to guide the person according to the lessons it has learned in previous lives.Well, a philosophical argument would be:
Given that the reincarnated individual has no knowledge of their previous life, reincarnation is no different than obliteration with the creation of a new soul immediately afterwards. It is ultimately pointless, as, lacking the context of your previous lives, you would not be able to act on any of the knowledge that is meant to be gained through the process.
A more science-based argument against it is simply that there is more life on Earth now than ever before so, unless souls are being created, there is no way reincarnation could account for the world’s population.
Theologically, it just makes no sense, and also removes any real reason to strive for goodness. Yeah, sure, I might suffer for a little while if I steal or lie or cheat, but ultimately I just get another chance, so who cares? Only the worst of the worst are prevented from reincarnating, so as long as I’m not that bad, I’ll be fine. The concept of reincarnation removes the necessity of doing good and following God / the gods (given that most believers of reincarnation are also Pagan.) Sure some people do strive to do better because it’ll earn them some benefit in the next life, but they have no guarantee of what their life will be, so it’s ultimately a blind endeavor driven almost entirely by fear.
As for the number of persons - the Gods have already created enough human souls (around 60 billion I am told) and only about 7 billion are in incarnation at this moment. There are actually many souls waiting in the queue to be born and as the population increases more will have the opportunity to do so.
As for reasons for goodness - reincarnation coupled with karma gives you enough reason. If you lie, cheat or steal, the exact same thing will happen to you at someone else’s hand in the future - that is your karma and it gets passed on to the next life - there is no escape.
Ultimately there is no point in arguing about this issue. What is true will still be true whether you win the argument or not. It is after all God’s will not mine or yours whether reincarnation is a good idea or bad.
We will know the truth of this matter when the Christ Returns. He will resolve this debate once and for all. I can imagine the chaos he will cause, if he tells us that reincarnation is in fact true. We should wait and see - I don’t think it is very long now.
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End_Timer
Guest
With God, everything good is possible
God is FREE to act
Reincarnation is possible
so I believe those whose die in infancy MAY be reincarnated.
God is FREE to act
Reincarnation is possible
so I believe those whose die in infancy MAY be reincarnated.
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thistle
Guest
I notice your profile states you are Catholic. If you believe that reincarnation is possible that contradicts Church teaching and is a grave sin, including heresy.With God, everything good is possible
God is FREE to act
Reincarnation is possible
so I believe those whose die in infancy MAY be reincarnated.
The Church teaching:
CCC 1013 Death is the end of man’s earthly pilgrimage, of the time of grace and mercy which God offers him so as to work out his earthly life in keeping with the divine plan, and to decide his ultimate destiny. When “the single course of our earthly life” is completed, we shall not return to other earthly lives: “It is appointed for men to die once.” There is no “reincarnation” after death.
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ProdglArchitect
Guest
(Clipped for post length)It is true that a person does not have knowledge of previous lives…
As for the number of persons -…
Both of these points are unverifiable assertions, so there’s really no way to respond to them. I would still argue that the loss of knowledge renders the concept of previous lives pointless, as this process of purification could be just as easily (and in fact more easily) handled in the spiritual realm. Given that reincarnation makes the body inconsequential to the soul, why not just skip the multiple lives things and allow a soul to actively work out its problems with full knowledge and without the limitations of a body/memory which may not respond to the soul’s prodding?
Yeah, sorry, I don’t buy it. It’s a great concept in principle, but in practice. It seems common for people to say that they’ve already messed up this life, so they’ll just try again the next time around. The belief in another chance removes the urgency and the actual need to do good.As for reasons for goodness - reincarnation coupled with karma gives you enough reason. If you lie, cheat or steal, the exact same thing will happen to you at someone else’s hand in the future - that is your karma and it gets passed on to the next life - there is no escape.
I agree that the Truth is the Truth regardless of whether or not you believe it, but I disagree with it being unimportant. If reincarnation is true, then yes, it’s unimportant… as is the entire concept of belief. Reincarnation renders belief meaningless, as even if I don’t believe in this life, I’ll get another chance. There is no reason to stress over it.Ultimately there is no point in arguing about this issue. What is true will still be true whether you win the argument or not. It is after all God’s will not mine or yours whether reincarnation is a good idea or bad.
However, if reincarnation is false, then it is of the utmost importance that we show this to those who believe in it. The way a person lives knowing they’ve only get one chance to get it right is completely different from the way a person lives if they think this is just one of many chances.
It is literally impossible for Jesus to tell us that reincarnation is true while remaining internally consistent and logically coherent. The Bible makes it quite clearly, that we only get one shot at this, and then we are judged.We will know the truth of this matter when the Christ Returns. He will resolve this debate once and for all. I can imagine the chaos he will cause, if he tells us that reincarnation is in fact true. We should wait and see - I don’t think it is very long now.
Hebrews 9:27:
Just as it is appointed that human beings die once, and after this the judgment.
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Maximilian75
Guest
If you’re working from a Christian, or even just Abrahamic, point view, it makes no sense.
From others? I honestly dont know.
From others? I honestly dont know.
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rossum
Guest
I am Buddhist, so I come at this from a very different perspective.
For all the Indian religions, if you do not follow the rules, you will carry on reincarnating. Only those who do follow the rules can ever get off the cycle of birth and death.
You are mischaracterising the Indian religions here. You would do better to learn more about what you are criticising first. That way you will not be attacking a strawman.
rossum
We were all born, but none of us can remember being born, so absence of memory is not proof of absence. Buddhist texts (and I assume Hindu and Jain texts as well) claim that it is possible to remember previous lives. The Buddha could apparently do this. The instructions to do so are in the Visuddhimagga chapter 13.Given that the reincarnated individual has no knowledge of their previous life, reincarnation is no different than obliteration with the creation of a new soul immediately afterwards.
Reincarnation can be in a heaven, a hell or on another planet in the universe. Merely counting material life on earth is insufficient.A more science-based argument against it is simply that there is more life on Earth now than ever before so, unless souls are being created, there is no way reincarnation could account for the world’s population.
Karma will get you every time. Part of what passes from one life to the next is your accumulated karma. It is doesn’t get you this time round, then it will get you next time:Theologically, it just makes no sense, and also removes any real reason to strive for goodness. Yeah, sure, I might suffer for a little while if I steal or lie or cheat, but ultimately I just get another chance, so who cares?
Neither in the sky nor in mid-ocean,
nor in a cave in the mountains,
is there a place where a man
can escape his evil deed.
– Dhammapada 9:12
This is incorrect. In all the Indian religions only the best of the best no longer reincarnate because they have attained nirvana/moksha/enlightenment. Everyone else goes round again, dying again and again and again and again.Only the worst of the worst are prevented from reincarnating, so as long as I’m not that bad, I’ll be fine.
I am not sure that it is fair to describe Hindus, Buddhists, Jains and Sikhs as ‘pagan’. Non-Christian, certainly, but ‘pagan’?The concept of reincarnation removes the necessity of doing good and following God / the gods (given that most believers of reincarnation are also Pagan.)
For all the Indian religions, if you do not follow the rules, you will carry on reincarnating. Only those who do follow the rules can ever get off the cycle of birth and death.
And Christians don’t?Sure some people do strive to do better because it’ll earn them some benefit in the next life…
So “fear of God” is not preached in Christianity and the threats of eternal torture in hell are never ever mentioned?…but they have no guarantee of what their life will be, so it’s ultimately a blind endeavor driven almost entirely by fear.
You are mischaracterising the Indian religions here. You would do better to learn more about what you are criticising first. That way you will not be attacking a strawman.
rossum
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ProdglArchitect
Guest
The difference is that there are external validators for our birth. For example, the fact that we are currently alive. There is no such external validation for reincarnation.I am Buddhist, so I come at this from a very different perspective.
We were all born, but none of us can remember being born, so absence of memory is not proof of absence. Buddhist texts (and I assume Hindu and Jain texts as well) claim that it is possible to remember previous lives. The Buddha could apparently do this. The instructions to do so are in the Visuddhimagga chapter 13.
Good to know. I’ll stop using that argument.Reincarnation can be in a heaven, a hell or on another planet in the universe. Merely counting material life on earth is insufficient.
Again, the lack of finality means that you can essentially push off consequences until your next life. Yeah, you might get a crappy life, but you don’t really need to worry about that right now. (It may be stupid to act this way, but this is how most people react to anything whose consequences aren’t immediate.)Karma will get you every time. Part of what passes from one life to the next is your accumulated karma. It is doesn’t get you this time round, then it will get you next time:
Neither in the sky nor in mid-ocean,
nor in a cave in the mountains,
is there a place where a man
can escape his evil deed.
– Dhammapada 9:12
It was my understanding that in the Hindu religion there is Nirvana, the cycle of reincarnation, and then several various levels of “Hell” where people atone for misdeeds while awaiting reincarnation. Most of these are temporary, but that the lowest “level”, reserved for the worse people with the greatest Karmic imbalance, is permanent. If this is wrong I apologize. I also recognize that Buddhism and Hindu(ism?) differ on the specifics of the afterlife.This is incorrect. In all the Indian religions only the best of the best no longer reincarnate because they have attained nirvana/moksha/enlightenment. Everyone else goes round again, dying again and again and again and again.Only the worst of the worst are prevented from reincarnating, so as long as I’m not that bad, I’ll be fine.
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ProdglArchitect
Guest
Hindus are the literal definition of Pagan, they believe in multiple gods… I’m mainly considering Hindu concepts of reincarnation here. As for the rest, in my mind pagan sounds nicer than Godless, so I just kind of stuck with that… No offense intended…I am not sure that it is fair to describe Hindus, Buddhists, Jains and Sikhs as ‘pagan’. Non-Christian, certainly, but ‘pagan’?
That still doesn’t provide any overwhelming need to follow the rules. Even if life sucks, if I have another chance then who cares? If I have any number of chances, then eventually I’ll start to get it right…For all the Indian religions, if you do not follow the rules, you will carry on reincarnating. Only those who do follow the rules can ever get off the cycle of birth and death.
No, we do. The difference is that we only get the one next life, the eternal life. There’s greater weight to our choices. There’s a real reason to do good because this is the only chance we get.And Christians don’t?
Fear is certainly a starting place for a lot of Christians, but only a starting place. The ultimate reason to follow God’s will is not fear of consequences, but out of Love for Him that created us. Love for Him that sacrificed Himself to redeem us.So “fear of God” is not preached in Christianity and the threats of eternal torture in hell are never ever mentioned?…but they have no guarantee of what their life will be, so it’s ultimately a blind endeavor driven almost entirely by fear.
We also know what is waiting for us in the next life, at least in concept. Either eternal bliss, or eternal torment. We may not know the exact form that’ll take, but that doesn’t change the nature of the experience.
Apart from the issue of population numbers, which I’ve agreed is a bad argument, none of my arguments have been strawmen.You are mischaracterising the Indian religions here. You would do better to learn more about what you are criticising first. That way you will not be attacking a strawman.
rossum
Either way, I’m going to have to drop out of this conversation for now. Always fun talking with you Rossum, I always learn something new. ^^
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openmind77
Guest
All assertions about life after death are unverifiable.…Both of these points are unverifiable assertions, so there’s really no way to respond to them…
As I said it before impossible to prove it one way or another. So it can not be ‘shown’ to anyone.…However, if reincarnation is false, then it is of the utmost importance that we show this to those who believe in it…
It is literally impossible for Jesus to tell us that reincarnation is true while remaining internally consistent and logically coherent. …
Hebrews 9:27:
These words were not spoken by Jesus, so he would not be contradicting himself in anyway if he tells us that reincarnation is true.Just as it is appointed that human beings die once, and after this the judgment.
Yes, it will be quite interesting when Jesus Returns and this question is resolved.
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End_Timer
Guest
Reincarnation IS possible.
CCC1013 seems to apply to kids & older
i’m thinking of infants or pre-born
CCC1013 seems to apply to kids & older
i’m thinking of infants or pre-born
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Lara
Guest
There is no evidence that my soul guides me. Everything I know, I learnt in this life.
There’s also no way of knowing whether a bad thing that happens to you now was caused by something you did in a former life. Plus, we gain forgiveness for the bad things we do.
It’s wishful thinking to hope that somebody who has wronged you will necessarily endure more than guilt over it, if that. We’d like to think he will pay for it, but if something bad happens to him, it can arise from many possible scenarios including from him having a bad character in the first place.
Also, there are many very good people who have bad things happen to them.
There’s also no way of knowing whether a bad thing that happens to you now was caused by something you did in a former life. Plus, we gain forgiveness for the bad things we do.
It’s wishful thinking to hope that somebody who has wronged you will necessarily endure more than guilt over it, if that. We’d like to think he will pay for it, but if something bad happens to him, it can arise from many possible scenarios including from him having a bad character in the first place.
Also, there are many very good people who have bad things happen to them.
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openmind77
Guest
You may be right. It would be best if reincarnation turned out to be false. Can you imagine the chaos in the world if it turned out to be true? It is not just Christians, Muslims also believe in only one life. Almost 5 billion out of the 7 billion world population would be in shock. All their basic beliefs would be put into doubt. Lets hope reincarnation is totally false - it would be too disruptive.
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Thom18
Guest
No, it’s not. CCC 1013 says “There is no reincarnation after death” not, “There is no reincarnation after death… except for infants”.Reincarnation IS possible.
CCC1013 seems to apply to kids & older
i’m thinking of infants or pre-born
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Lara
Guest
I don’t see your point. If 5 billion people believe something, they can all be wrong.
If reincarnation were true, why would there be chaos? Wouldn’t everything still chug along as always?
If reincarnation were true, why would there be chaos? Wouldn’t everything still chug along as always?
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fisherman_carl
Guest
The Bible already disproves reincarnation.
“But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, 28so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.” (Hebrews 9:26-28)
See also Three Arguments Against Reincarnation | Catholic Answers
Christianity is completely incompatible with reincarnation. Any Christian who believes in reincarnation has lost the true faith. Christianity teaches Original Sin, that man’s death is not God’s design but the result of sin, as well as, man’s destiny to eternal damnation or eternal life. There is one death and one judgement. To teach differently is to deny fundamental Christian Truth. As far as Christianity is concerned there is no reincarnation, but only one Incarnation, the Son of God, who became man for us and for our sins, and died on a Cross once and for all, for all mankind’s salvation.
Reincarnation says you can save yourself. You just need many chances. But, Christianity says you need Christ to be saved. You need his grace if you want to go to heaven. Reincarnation is a merciless belief. Karma means if you did something bad you will always suffer for it. Christianity teaches mercy and forgiveness, the unmmerrited and gratuitous pardening of our debts. In fact it goes against karma. If karma were true none of us could go to heaven, since no one is good enough. For we have all sinned. Reincarnation is like another form of pelagianism, thinking we can be good enough apart from Christ’s grace if we have enough chances. It is a denial of original sin and the loss of original justice, as well as the need for Redemption and the power of God to sanctify men through Christ Jesus
“But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, 28so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.” (Hebrews 9:26-28)
See also Three Arguments Against Reincarnation | Catholic Answers
Christianity is completely incompatible with reincarnation. Any Christian who believes in reincarnation has lost the true faith. Christianity teaches Original Sin, that man’s death is not God’s design but the result of sin, as well as, man’s destiny to eternal damnation or eternal life. There is one death and one judgement. To teach differently is to deny fundamental Christian Truth. As far as Christianity is concerned there is no reincarnation, but only one Incarnation, the Son of God, who became man for us and for our sins, and died on a Cross once and for all, for all mankind’s salvation.
Reincarnation says you can save yourself. You just need many chances. But, Christianity says you need Christ to be saved. You need his grace if you want to go to heaven. Reincarnation is a merciless belief. Karma means if you did something bad you will always suffer for it. Christianity teaches mercy and forgiveness, the unmmerrited and gratuitous pardening of our debts. In fact it goes against karma. If karma were true none of us could go to heaven, since no one is good enough. For we have all sinned. Reincarnation is like another form of pelagianism, thinking we can be good enough apart from Christ’s grace if we have enough chances. It is a denial of original sin and the loss of original justice, as well as the need for Redemption and the power of God to sanctify men through Christ Jesus
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ericc
Guest
If karma/reincarnation works i.e. lead people to good, we should be seeing improvements at every cycle. But it is not shown that it actually leads people towards the desired objective.
If everyone is living their karma, whether to be happy, suffer, sickness, evil, good it would seem that lifestyle has been "fixed " for them so what choices they select today is the result of their karma or is it their effort to change their karma? India is a land of antiquity. We should be seeing massive improvements in life over the thousands of years of karmic cycles but India is still not enjoying the fruits of cyclical karmic improvements.
Reincarnation may lead people to procrastinate to live better lives. Because there is always a next time. But do people actually wanted to live better lives or they prefer to enjoy their lives as it is? For those living in the prestigious castes and doing well, there is every incentive to maintain the current system i.e. enjoying their karma. For those in perpetual low caste, there is no way out. So this system is unfair to those in low caste and also attributed to karma. The karmic cycle does not appear to reduce the population in the low caste nor increase those in the higher caste if karmic cycles had cleaned up society over the thousands of years.
If everyone is living their karma, whether to be happy, suffer, sickness, evil, good it would seem that lifestyle has been "fixed " for them so what choices they select today is the result of their karma or is it their effort to change their karma? India is a land of antiquity. We should be seeing massive improvements in life over the thousands of years of karmic cycles but India is still not enjoying the fruits of cyclical karmic improvements.
Reincarnation may lead people to procrastinate to live better lives. Because there is always a next time. But do people actually wanted to live better lives or they prefer to enjoy their lives as it is? For those living in the prestigious castes and doing well, there is every incentive to maintain the current system i.e. enjoying their karma. For those in perpetual low caste, there is no way out. So this system is unfair to those in low caste and also attributed to karma. The karmic cycle does not appear to reduce the population in the low caste nor increase those in the higher caste if karmic cycles had cleaned up society over the thousands of years.
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openmind77
Guest
Sorry for the late response. I somehow missed your post. I totally agree that if 5 billion (or even all 7 billion) people believe something, they can all be wrong.I don’t see your point. If 5 billion people believe something, they can all be wrong.
If reincarnation were true, why would there be chaos? Wouldn’t everything still chug along as always?
As for the chaos if reincarnation was shown to be true - don’t you think there will be chaos if anything in the magisterium was shown to be not true without any doubts? Actually the case for Muslims is worse - if anything in the Koran is shown to be false without question, Muslims will face a major crisis. The main crisis will be the fighting between the believers in the old truth and those willing to change their beliefs.
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