Yes. Exactly. Matter and energy are conserved in every physical action/reaction. First law of thermodynamics, I believe. It is observable and provable. All behaviors and causes of matter are demonstrated through physics alone.Aren’t you confusing matter with mass? And if we personally are looking at what we directly observe “matter”is only what appears to the senses.
Christ was probably tri-lingual, but that’s another story.Given that The New Testament comes down to us in Greek, we ought to assume that the Greek term for “substance” was known to them. Since the time of Alexander, Jews had been influenced by Greek culture, Many, many were Greek speakers, and Paul, for one, showed a familiarity with philosophy when he showed up in Athens. It seems likely that Our Lord himself was bilingual. Luke and John both write good Greek. So why insist the Scripture exists in a sort of bubble separate from the Greek world?
I would submit that there were multiple meaningful points. I would propose the most meaningful one to be the demonstration of the lengths and depths some will go through to dismiss and denegrate Church teachings.Hey, I have a great idea. Muze give us your last word and then we can end this rediculous, pointless conversation. Linus2nd
And modern science has shown that we get to observe this matter. There is no “unseen” matter.
I did not say matter could not be seen. We see matter all around us. However, I would not say that there is no unseen matter. Take a look in your science book and I think you will find that the scientists of today say that most of the matter, about 96% or so, in the universe is called dark matter which is unseen and unknown.
But the fact that these molecules define all that Aristotle claimed was explained by the substantial form does disprove their natural philosophy.
I did not say matter could not be seen. We see matter all around us. However, I would not say that there is no unseen matter. Take a look in your science book and I think you will find that the scientists of today say that most of the matter, about 96% or so, in the universe is called dark matter which is unseen and unknown.
That’s a nice play on words. If you were to actually go where this dark matter is, you’d see it and could get to know it.
Given that Aristotle was a naturalist. The closest one can get is by analogy. Some have tried to point to what St. Thomas said. He deviated from Aristotle as much as Einstein deviated from Newton.Christ was probably tri-lingual, but that’s another story.
So, show me Aristotelian transubstantiation in Scripture, then?
Richca;10833901:
You keep confusing substance with matter,That’s a nice play on words. If you were to actually go where this dark matter is, you’d see it and could get to know it. The reason it is “dark” to us is that it isn’t illuminated such that we can perceive it from there.
That’s a bit different than saying that this piece of bread I’m holding has some existence that cannot be seen that is its fundamental efficient cause and determines how it behaves.
And he would be wrong.
A horse is composed of matter.
Anyone who studies Aristotle and realizes that this “form” is more than an explanation.
I haven’t made any such claim. A material substance can be defined solely by its material. That’s what modern science tells us. The “form” as you describe it is nothing more than a term that helps us explain what this composition of matter is.
Again, modern science clearly tells us this is not true. All attributes of a material thing can be attributed solely to the materials it is comprised of, down to the molecular level.
Transubstantiation makes the claim that this substance, this substantial form, exists in such a way that it can undergo conversion via a miracle. However, modern science has shown that this substance that A&A (and Trent) claims exists to undergo conversion doesn’t actually exist, that what A&A referred to as the accidents and material is all that there is to matter.
Except that the substance that Trent claims undergoes conversion doesn’t exist.
And now modern science has shown that Aristotle’s philosophy regarding substance theory is in error, especially in the way that Trent utilized it.
That’s Aquinas using Aristotle’s substance theory, which, in this form, is incompatible with modern science.
Epiousios from Mt 6:11 which is a hapax legomenon. Jerome translated it as a super substance in Matthew, and daily in Luke. Seeing as Jerome had the Hebrew version of Matthew for reference, as well as the Greek, this could be why it is translated differently. A parsing of the word in Greek is interesting indeed.Christ was probably tri-lingual, but that’s another story.
So, show me Aristotelian transubstantiation in Scripture, then?
However, Matthew 6:11 has nothing to do with Eucharist. That is simply Jesus telling his disciples how to pray.Epiousios from Mt 6:11 which is a hapax legomenon. Jerome translated it as a super substance in Matthew, and daily in Luke. Seeing as Jerome had the Hebrew version of Matthew for reference, as well as the Greek, this could be why it is translated differently. A parsing of the word in Greek is interesting indeed.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epiousios
credobiblestudy.com/roman/en/catholic-bible-douay-rheims-nt-book-matthew-mt-chapter-6/47/6/11
By the way, Jesus likely did not speak Greek because when the Greeks came to speak with Him they instead got to talk with the two Jewish apostles with Greek names… Phillip and Andrew. They were likely acting as translators.
In my estimation, the supersubstantial bread is the bread of thanksgiving just like that which they broke at the last supper for which they were supposed do in commemoration. In other words, the Holy Eucharist.However, Matthew 6:11 has nothing to do with Eucharist. That is simply Jesus telling his disciples how to pray.
“Matter and “energy,” are terms more of art than science. As to “cause,” that concept is hard to apply at the level of the very small.Yes. Exactly. Matter and energy are conserved in every physical action/reaction. First law of thermodynamics, I believe. It is observable and provable. All behaviors and causes of matter are demonstrated through physics alone.
Matt 6:11 has nothing to do with the last supper, either.In my estimation, the supersubstantial bread is the bread of thanksgiving just like that which they broke at the last supper for which they were supposed do in commemoration. In other words, the Holy Eucharist.
[God] Give us this day, our daily bread, just as [God]Jesus gave us at the last supper, and continues to do at the liturgy celebrated every day in the life of the Church.Matt 6:11 has nothing to do with the last supper, either.