Art being a human trait -- what do you think?

[KCtheMommy]

Hi everyone! I typically post over at Family Life and I hope I am posting this is the right place, but I saw something recently that really blew my mind. To start with I want to say that one of my favorite articles in the Catechism deals with art. As an artist, I find this a particular beauty of our faith, just the respect for art, and how it’s a gift bestowed upon us humans by God.

2501 Created "in the image of God,"294 man also expresses the truth of his relationship with God the Creator by the beauty of his artistic works. Indeed, art is a distinctively human form of expression; beyond the search for the necessities of life which is common to all living creatures, art is a freely given superabundance of the human being’s inner riches. Arising from talent given by the Creator and from man’s own effort, art is a form of practical wisdom, uniting knowledge and skill,295 to give form to the truth of reality in a language accessible to sight or hearing. To the extent that it is inspired by truth and love of beings, art bears a certain likeness to God’s activity in what he has created. Like any other human activity, art is not an absolute end in itself, but is ordered to and ennobled by the ultimate end of man.296

Then I caught this on the news:
youtube.com/watch?v=8FGEJKQzaMA&feature=related

Distinctly human seems a bit challenged now huh? I mean the elephant is painting! Not just self-portraits but other things it sees. This is amazing – and puzzling.

What do you think?

 

[C2K2]

What I saw was an elephant doing a pretty difficult trick. It’s human trainers/ handlers were giving it the paintbrush and the paint. I havn’t heard of too many wild elephants pulling down tree branched and using mud to paint self portraits on the rocks.

Humans have a unique desire to create. God has placed in us a deep yearning to create. If animals started pacing the floor because they have writers block then I may see things differently. Until then it is just a pretty neat trick and not really art.

 

[jmcrae]

Same here - neat trick. Complicated trick, yes.

But the elephant wasn’t actually drawing the scene in front of her. She was drawing the same image, over and over again, which happened to be an outline of an elephant, and she happened to be around other elephants. But the elephant in her drawings is not posed the same as the elephants around her, the proportions are different, and also, she draws the same one over and over again; not different ones.

So, although it’s possible that the elephant recognizes something and is expressing it through art, it’s equally possible that the elephant has been trained or programmed to make a particular image or a particular combination of lines, which look to our eye like a Matisse-style elephant.

 

[vern_humphrey]

The Church is inerrant on matters of faith and morals – not on matters of science. The fact that an elephant can paint shouldn’t bring about a “So the Church is wrong!” reaction.

 

[KCtheMommy]

The Church is inerrant on matters of faith and morals – not on matters of science. The fact that an elephant can paint shouldn’t bring about a “So the Church is wrong!” reaction.

No, not saying that at all. It’s just INTERESTING.

 

[edwest2]

Recently, there have been attempts to humanize animals. There have been two attempts to get a court to recognize a chimp as a person. In my view, there are two reasons for this:

1. The recent spreading of the humans are just animals concept, which denies the special place given to man by God and the personal relationship we can have with Him.
2. Anarchists with too much time on their hands. Causing mischief for their own amusement and because they are unguided or misguided beings in a spiritual sense.

God bless,
Ed

 

[vern_humphrey]

No, not saying that at all. It’s just INTERESTING.

It certainly is – I consider it a great step forward in understanding animals.

I know animals have higher cognitive abilities than most people think. Horses can plan ahead, for example, and have a sense of humor.

 

[KCtheMommy]

It certainly is – I consider it a great step forward in understanding animals.

I know animals have higher cognitive abilities than most people think. Horses can plan ahead, for example, and have a sense of humor.

Well part of my befuddlement on this particular article is that I have used it in my apologetic efforts, especially when faced with arguments that we are mind-controlled by the papacy. I say “well look at how beautiful our church is, even the respect to all art, and artists, even the smallest artistic expression should be celebrated. We have a wonderful and celebratory faith, not one that wants to control the minutiae details of each of it’s member’s lives. No, our church celebrates each of us, being made in the image of God, to think for ourselves, to create as He created – naturally on a smaller scale (A MUCH SMALLER scale ) – but creating none-the-less.”

So here I sit and wonder if I bring up the art argument again am I going to get a painting elephant thrown back at me? How in the world will I refute that? I mean besides obvious speculation.

Even if the elephant is painting the same thing it seems to know how to introduce shadow and perspective. It also uses imagination to show an elephant holding in it’s trunk different objects.

So no, it doesn’t make me challenge my Faith at all – if anything it makes me consider becoming a vegetarian! ROFL

I just wondered what you all might philosophize on it. We also know elephants mourn their dead, and have other humanistic traits – outside even this one that can PAINT.

Either way it’s impressive. I just threw this out as food for thought. Not to debate our catechism or our theology – just something to chew on. That’s all. I like reading your responses. I like hearing what other intelligent and faithful people think about it.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Over the last 50 years, we have seen many scientific myths fall –

“Animals don’t use tools” – but there are birds that use stones to break open shell fish and large eggs.

“Animals don’t make tools” – chimps select and modify branches and sticks for particular purposes.

“Animals don’t have wars” – ants and chimps, among others, do have wars.

“Animals don’t own property” – many species stake out and defend land.

And so on – they are more like us than we like to admit.

 

[wildleafblower]

It certainly is – I consider it a great step forward in understanding animals.

I know animals have higher cognitive abilities than most people think. Horses can plan ahead, for example, and have a sense of humor.

Yeah, me too can have a sense of humor. Thanks Vern, I needed a break from another topic that has become the endless DEBATE of nonsense due to a lack of research. I’ll have to return to that subject matter later though in the meantime what you said reminded me of …

Jabberwocky
Lewis Carroll
(from Through the Looking-Glass and What Alice Found There, 1872)
Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe:
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.

“Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
The frumious Bandersnatch!”

He took his vorpal sword in hand:
Long time the manxome foe he sought –
So rested he by the Tumtum tree,
And stood awhile in thought.

And, as in uffish thought he stood,
The Jabberwock, with eyes of flame,
Came whiffling through the tulgey wood,
And burbled as it came!

One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back.

"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!’
He chortled in his joy.

`Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe;
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.

Thanks KCtheMommy for posting this topic. You’ve inspired me and uplifted my spirit. Purely as a hobby, I’ve spent decades dabbling in just about every form of the Arts and Creative Writing. Most definitely, it’s food for the soul - a profound mystical experience!

 

[Pete_1]

Well part of my befuddlement on this particular article is that I have used it in my apologetic efforts, especially when faced with arguments that we are mind-controlled by the papacy. I say “well look at how beautiful our church is, even the respect to all art, and artists, even the smallest artistic expression should be celebrated. We have a wonderful and celebratory faith, not one that wants to control the minutiae details of each of it’s member’s lives. No, our church celebrates each of us, being made in the image of God, to think for ourselves, to create as He created – naturally on a smaller scale (A MUCH SMALLER scale ) – but creating none-the-less.”

So here I sit and wonder if I bring up the art argument again am I going to get a painting elephant thrown back at me? How in the world will I refute that? I mean besides obvious speculation.

Even if the elephant is painting the same thing it seems to know how to introduce shadow and perspective. It also uses imagination to show an elephant holding in it’s trunk different objects.

So no, it doesn’t make me challenge my Faith at all – if anything it makes me consider becoming a vegetarian! ROFL

I just wondered what you all might philosophize on it. We also know elephants mourn their dead, and have other humanistic traits – outside even this one that can PAINT.

Either way it’s impressive. I just threw this out as food for thought. Not to debate our catechism or our theology – just something to chew on. That’s all. I like reading your responses. I like hearing what other intelligent and faithful people think about it.

I can get my computer to draw me a picture, it just does what it’s told to do, maybe it’s the same with the Elephant.

 

[KCtheMommy]

I can get my computer to draw me a picture, it just does what it’s told to do, maybe it’s the same with the Elephant.

Amen, and oh by the way at your signature.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Thanks KCtheMommy for posting this topic. You’ve inspired me and uplifted my spirit. Purely as a hobby, I’ve spent decades dabbling in just about every form of the Arts and Creative Writing. Most definitely, it’s food for the soul - a profound mystical experience!

Come to Arkansas, and I’ll let you meet a horse with a sense of humor. It will uplift your spirit to hear him laugh as you fly over his head into a bramble bush.

 

[strngrnrth]

Many animals can mourn the dead, play tricks to amuse themselves and others, bond cross-species, make simple tools and make simple pictures, some spontaneously. But humans alone plan and execute art that transcends recording a simple image, mourn those they have never met or had personal contact with, tell verbal jokes, struggle to preserve another species from extinction, or write theology. We are still unique. But animals are really cool, too.

 

[minduser]

yeah, humans are smarter than any species we know. yeah, animals continue to show traits we used to think unique for humans. the thing is, any species COULD one day evolve (yes, i believe in evolution…) to be as intelligent or more intelligent than humans. how would humans react to that? would they call it an abomination and destroy them? or would they accept them as equals? in fact, i would very much like to see a breeding program attempt to breed the most intelligent animals. there are many intelligent species to choose from–i would choose a primate or a bird. in a few hundred years we might be able to have conversations about the morality of birth control–with a chimp.

 

[KCtheMommy]

Thanks KCtheMommy for posting this topic. You’ve inspired me and uplifted my spirit. Purely as a hobby, I’ve spent decades dabbling in just about every form of the Arts and Creative Writing. Most definitely, it’s food for the soul - a profound mystical experience!

Well thank you and you are welcome all at once!