Ask an Apologist: What is a Traditional Catholic - Attack on Traditionalists?

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A reader sent in a question regarding what the term ‘Traditionalist Catholic’ means and received a response from Michelle Arnold.

As SSPX Superior Fellay and Pope Benedict are working to normalize the Society’s structure, I think that approaching this topic requires respect and care. In my view, the answer is instead partisan and only drives deeper the wedge that divides the mainstream Church (that is, what is left of it) and Traditionalists.

I post for all to see and offer their constructive opinions:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?threadid=465936

***Generally speaking, a Traditionalist Roman Catholic is a Catholic of the Latin church who prefers the Tridentine Latin Mass and the sacraments celebrated according to the pre-Vatican II rites of the Latin church.

Some Traditionalists simply prefer the extraordinary form of the Roman rite but are otherwise in line with Catholic orthodoxy. Others have more or less strange understandings of Catholic orthodoxy (although they consider themselves to be fully orthodox) and think that all that came with and after Vatican II is more or less suspect (and consider the post-Vatican II teachings of the Church to be less orthodox than the teachings of the pre-Vatican II era). On the most belligerent end of the Traditionalist spectrum, there are some who will claim to merely believe and teach “all that Catholics believed and taught for 1900 years before Vatican II” (which is simply ahistorical and untrue) and who will separate themselves from full communion with the Church in one way or the other, from “faithful dissent” all the way to sedevacantism (believing that there is no current valid pope).

As for your son’s shipmate, it is strange that he considers himself a Traditionalist and yet takes on responsibilities that many Traditionalists believe should be reserved to a priest. If he were consistent in his principles, he would not be leading Communion services or distributing Communion. In any event, your son is free to attend these services and receive Communion at these services. If his shipmate begins to proselytize his fellow Catholics in his uniquely “Traditionalist” ideology and encourages dissent from the Church though, your son may want to contact the Archdiocese for the Military Services, USA, for support and counsel. ***

Michelle, I am a Traditionalist. I was received in a normal, diocese parish that is exclusively Novus Ordo in its liturgical offering. With all do respect, I believe that your comment is very one sided and I am deeply concerned at your suggestion for the reader to ‘tattle on’ an extraordinary minister of holy communion.

In military units, unlike in virtually every parish in America, the Priest really does need a lot of help to distribute the Eucharist for obvious logistical reasons. The soldier is clearly filling a role that he is totally permitted to fulfill according to Canon Law.

It is a simple fact that since the Second Vatican Council, Catholic practice has plundged, the look, feel, and manner of worship has changed, and many bishops and priests regularly preach heretical lessons.

As society becomes more and more overcome by evil, the Church has not volunteered itself as the contradiction to the world, but rather has ‘thrown open the shutters’ and invited it in for a parlay.

In so much as there are Traditionalists types who advocate for disobeying the Magesterium, infallible teachings of the Pope, etc., these are trouble makers. Those who deny the validity of the new rite, ceteris paribus, are troublesome and extremely few.

I think that it is a telling feature that ‘Trads’ catch much more flak from apologists than what is directed at Protestant groups or parishes in open and unapologetic heresy.

Life is a constant battle of finding the strength to accept Christ and avoid sin. Therefore, I focus on improving my failures. I do not spend, as my post history indicates, much time at all entering into this debate. But in light of this dark characterization of Traditionalist Catholics, I am forced to respond.

If nothing else, the numbers show an explosion in the Traditionalist community and a consistant decline in the mainline Church. This is not a cause for happiness at all as evil infests more and more common culture (look at Lady Gaga, e.g. Has her Brooklyn Bishop excommunicated her?)

In some, I think that Cardinal Arinze advice to pray the Rosay sums up well my perspective on this conflict. 🙂
 
i believe Michelle made a fair assessment. she only spoke of the truth when she mentioned the broad spectrum of Traditionalists, from those who just prefer the EF over the OF, to those who are leaning more to the right and believe that Vatican II is suspect, to the extreme who are sedevacantists
 
Choy’s right. The original poster said that, according to her son, the person in question is a traditionalist, yet admits that he “doesn’t believe a lot of what the Church teaches.” That ain’t good.
 
Choy’s right. The original poster said that, according to her son, the person in question is a traditionalist, yet admits that he “doesn’t believe a lot of what the Church teaches.” That ain’t good.
That’s the mother’s version of the son’s version of what his shipmate says, with some unspecified editing from Michelle Arnold thrown in for good measure. Pardon me for suspecting that those are not his actual words.
 
That’s the mother’s version of the son’s version of what his shipmate says, with some unspecified editing from Michelle Arnold thrown in for good measure. Pardon me for suspecting that those are not his actual words.
Mike is right; we have to be really careful about gossip and listen to third hand reports. It’s just not fair to indict someone who cannot defend himself. Furthermore, since there is conflict within the Chuch between Traditionalists and the general Church and special papal talks are happenning at this very moment, I think it is even more important to carefully approach this topic.

Sure, it is *possible *that this extraordinary minister of Holy Communion rejects an infallible teaching; indeed I give odds of this being so as less than the chance I will win powerball.

Example:
"As for your son’s shipmate, it is strange that he considers himself a Traditionalist and yet takes on responsibilities that many Traditionalists believe should be reserved to a priest. If he were consistent in his principles, he would not be leading Communion services or distributing Communion. "

This is a very superficial and biased dig at us who cringe at the platoons of EMHC when in 999/1000 cases they are not needed. This Marine helping in the military is actually performing what is intended of the EMHC: assisting in the distribution of the Eucharist in a situation where communicants cannot be reasonably be helped by the Priest by himself.

Or, let’s say that there is not a real legit need for an EMHC. Well, I know people are motivated to fill the role to be sure it is done in a respectful manner. I cannot tell you how many times an EMHC has crumbed the Host into a thousand piece in my hand or ‘handed out’ the Eucharist like it were a movie ticket.

So, with all respect due to Michelle, this above quote is trawling for a controversy or inconsistancy that we have no remote reason to suspect exists.

When the Marine is quoted as saying ‘he doesn’t believe a lot what the Church believes’ we have to remember that we do not have a record of him saying this, nor do we know what the context was.

For example, many clergy believe that women can be Priests, that one does not need Christ to be saved, transubstantiation does not take place, the Crusades were evil, there is no sin, Confession is unnecessary, etc. etc. These clergy and religious retain their status as ‘in good standing’ even though they are saying heretical things. Many Protestants I know actually think these are teachings of the Church.

Clearly, there has been as Pope Benedict has written and said a rupture of continuity that came with an ‘on the spot fabrication of a liturgy.’ Our Pope, may God preserve him, has pointed out that there does appear to be a conflict in the modernist insistance on ‘relgious liberty’ (i.e., it is a ‘human right’ to practice a false religion and government has no right to declare the Catholic faith the official religion) with the Syllabus of Errors, which was offer as a solemn official teaching unlike the pastoral Dignitatis Humanae.

Clearly, one can look at after Vatican II a monumental collapse in seminaries, public practice, Catholic-based laws, etc. Clearly something went wrong in this time period.

But it is not my cup of tea to pound my fists about a time that was decades before I was born. My concern and only reason for entering into this discussion is because many ‘conservative’ Catholics who have a cool touch for Traditionalists, in my view, do not seem to get just how seriously bad things are. That is, in terms of Church practice and understanding (really lack thereof) and how society in general is in a freefall.

Look, I just read many posts on this very forum that argue Lady Gaga is just a ho-hum silliness or ‘weird phase’ instead of the deeply noxious truth to her work and performers like her.

So, I’m just seeing a misplacement of resources in the slanting a very unconfirmed report against Traditionalists.

NB: 90% of the year, I am at a Mass of Paul VI so believe me, I am not one who makes the ridiculous argument that the rite is invalid. Indeed I am an advocate for Latin Masses at my parish and I am approaching with a prayerful, patient mindset. But the Novus Ordo is valid; not as pure a lamb as the timeless TLM, but none the less a sufficient sacrifice.
 
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