Assurance of Salvation: Is it possible?

[psychemusic]

amanda_nicole82:

Yes I have read the entire chapter, I have it in front of me right now just incase I missed something. And yes, I do believe that we should take the Bible literally.

While we’re all agreeing that we should take the Bible literally, perhaps we should consider some other verses pertinent to this discussion:

“. . . unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you” (John 6:53)

“No, I drive my body and train it, for fear that, after having preached to others, I myself should be disqualified” (1 Cor 9:27)

“These things happened to them as an example, and they have been written down as a warning to us, upon whom the end of the ages has come. Therefore whoever thinks he is standing secure should take care not to fall.” (1 Cor 10:11-12)

"Do you not know that the unjust will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived . . . " (1 Cor 6:9)

“You are separated from Christ, you who are trying to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace” (Gal 5:4)

"Let no one disqualify you, delighting in self-abasement and worship of angels . . . " (Col 2:18)

"For this reason, when I too could bear it no longer, I sent to learn about your faith, for fear that somehow the tempter had put you to the test and our toil might come to nothing" (1 Thess 3:5)

". . . Some, by rejecting conscience, have made a shipwreck of their faith . . . " (1 Tim 1:20)

"Take care, brothers, that none of you may have an evil and unfaithful heart, so as to forsake the living God. Encourage yourselves daily while it is still “today,” so that none of you may grow hardened by the deceit of sin. We have become partners of Christ if only we hold the beginning of the reality firm until the end . . . " (Heb 3:12-14)

"For it is impossible in the case of those who have once been enlightened and tested the heavenly gift and shared in the holy Spirit and tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to bring them to repentance again . . . " (Heb 6:4-6)

“If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries. Anyone who rejects the law of Moses is put to death without pity on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Do you not think that a much worse punishment is due the one who has contempt for the Son of God, considers unclean the covenant-blood by which he was consecrated, and insults the spirit of grace? We know the one who said: “Vengeance is mine; I will repay,” and again: “The Lord will judge his people.” It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.” (Heb 10:26-31)

And lastly, the only use of the actual phrase “faith alone” in Scripture:

“See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone” (James 2:24)

Amanda, I used to believe just as you do, having been an ardent member of a fundamentalist, Calvinistic-to-the-bone Bible Church in Denton, Texas, the veritable buckle of the Bible Belt. I was a faithful devotee there for about ten years, did their Bible study, and was actually pretty well-known in certain Church circles for my fidelity to Bible learning, church teaching, and apologetics. I was a die-in-the-wool Calvinist if ever there was one, from my heart. But I kept coming across passages such as the ones listed above, and they troubled me because I couldn’t honestly make their interpretation consistent with OSAS without rendering them unintelligible. I would ask my other Bible church friends, elders and pastors what these passages could possibly mean in light of their teaching of “once saved, always saved” and I got a different answer every time. I asked a man I was doing one-on-one discipleship with one time about Galatians 5:4 and he brushed my question off by laughing and moving to the next topic! Although it took me nearly a decade, I eventually realized that I couldn’t call myself Bible-believing and hold to OSAS, and, if I may say so, that’s one of the things God used to draw me out of that church and into the Catholic Church.

It should be added that the Calvinists and Catholics can agree on many things; we simply believe OSAS takes the assurance we can have too far. For more on this discussion, I HIGHLY recommend to you “The Salvation Controversy” by James (Jimmy) Akin. It’s worth the ten bucks or so to at least learn both sides, if you do nothing else.

I hope you don’t get the idea that I’m bludgeoning you with Scripture for its own sake, and I really hope you are not quick to accuse me of “pigeonholing”, as happens frequently in these kinds of discussions; but I think that risk needed to be hazarded so that you have an opportunity to see, there are a LOT of passages that are flatly incompatible with OSAS. I hope you reconsider your position.

 

[amanda_nicole82]

Thanks for your concern, but you really don’t have to worry about me. I don’t know all the answers, but I pray every night that the Lord would give me the wisdom to understand His Word and His will in my life. I just want to say that I didn’t originally come to this website to argue my point or to debate. The reason I came to this website in the first place is because my fiance used to be Catholic but we now attend church together (at our Baptist church), and his family is Catholic and i wanted to learn about their denomination, mainly out of respect. Most of them support his decision, but there are a few who are disappointed in him. He tells them that our church makes him feel closer to the Lord than he ever has before, but instead of supporting his spiritual growth they treat him as if he is deserting them or something. Not all of his family is like that though, some understand that it is the same God and the same Christ and some are happy that he has turned his life around and is not living for the Lord rather than himself. Sorry I got of topic there, I just wanted to let you know that my original intentions were not to try to prove anybody wrong or to get into a debate.

 

[springbreeze]

amanda_nicole82:

Thanks for your concern, but you really don’t have to worry about me. I don’t know all the answers, but I pray every night that the Lord would give me the wisdom to understand His Word and His will in my life. I just want to say that I didn’t originally come to this website to argue my point or to debate. The reason I came to this website in the first place is because my fiance used to be Catholic but we now attend church together (at our Baptist church), and his family is Catholic and i wanted to learn about their denomination, mainly out of respect. Most of them support his decision, but there are a few who are disappointed in him. He tells them that our church makes him feel closer to the Lord than he ever has before, but instead of supporting his spiritual growth they treat him as if he is deserting them or something. Not all of his family is like that though, some understand that it is the same God and the same Christ and some are happy that he has turned his life around and is not living for the Lord rather than himself. Sorry I got of topic there, I just wanted to let you know that my original intentions were not to try to prove anybody wrong or to get into a debate.

Dear friend

It is good that your fiance is finding God again in his life. I am sorry that certain people in his family have been unkind about him attending your Baptist Church. The journey in faith is a long one. It’s takes a whole lifetime. God uses many tools and many ways to bring souls to Him. I am glad that you are there for your fiance and support his spiritual searching for God wherever that may lead him.

It is wonderful that you are looking into the Catholic faith so as you might understand what Catholics actually believe. We are all looking for the Truth. Every person alive is looking to find the meaning of their existance and for their Creator even if they are not always consciously aware of it.

You don’t have to make apologies and if you are offended it is the people on this forum that should make apology to you. If I am the one who has offended you, then I really do apologise and I am sincerely sorry.

Pray to God that He may lead you to the Truth of His Son Christ Jesus, that is a simple prayer and you and your fiance may like to pray it together.

I wish you every blessing for your marriage and hope for peace in both of your families where faith and Christ Jesus are concerned.

God Bless you both always and much love and peace to you

Teresa

 

[gardenswithkids]

amanda_nicole82:

Thanks for your concern, but you really don’t have to worry about me…

Amanda, as you read this thread and others, you must realize that we Catholics are concerned about our own salvation. Please don’t mind our concern for yours; it’s not a knock on you personally. If my approach offended you, I am sorry.

amanda_nicole82:

The reason I came to this website in the first place is because my fiance used to be Catholic but we now attend church together (at our Baptist church), and his family is Catholic and i wanted to learn about their denomination, mainly out of respect.

You came here with a wonderful motive! May Christ richly rewards you!

amanda_nicole82:

Most of them support his decision, but there are a few who are disappointed in him. He tells them that our church makes him feel closer to the Lord than he ever has before, but instead of supporting his spiritual growth they treat him as if he is deserting them or something. Not all of his family is like that though, some understand that it is the same God and the same Christ…

Yes, it is the same God and the same Christ. But as you say your fiance “used to be Catholic”, you must realize that he did desert something, if only what you and he see as one of many denominations.
I don’t know the dynamics in his family. But I’d like to share a little of the dynamics that were going on in my life during the time I was away from the Catholic Church attending a Protestant church. The Catholics who were concerned that I left the Catholic Church were the ones who took their faith seriously. I know it just about broke my mother’s heart. She tried to support my “spirtiual growth”, but it just about crushed her.

Some people treat the Catholic Church like just one of many denominations. But the Catholic Church sees herself as the Church established by Jesus Christ when He said to Peter, “upon this rock I will build My Church”. For Catholics who seriously believe that Jesus came to establish His Church (and that the Church gave us the Bible, not the other way around), it saddens us when people leave.

In the passage from John 6 that we discussed earlier, some disciples left after Jesus told them that they should “eat His flesh and drink His blood.” Catholics believe that we do this literally at Mass. Like the disciples who left, some people find the teachings of Jesus in the Catholic Church “too hard” and leave. Others never learned the Catholic faith well enough to know what they left.

I know my faith grew during the time that I was away from the Catholic Church. I also know my mother was praying and offering up her suffering that I would come back to the Catholic Church. I eventually did and my husband joined it too. Since returning to the Catholic Church, my faith and relationship with Jesus has grown still more and continues to grow in ways I never imagined. I pray for grace so I never walk away from Jesus and His Church again.

 

[springbreeze]

gardenswithkids:

Amanda, as you read this thread and others, you must realize that we Catholics are concerned about our own salvation. Please don’t mind our concern for yours; it’s not a knock on you personally. We just doing for you and others what we want for ourselves like Jesus said we should.
You came here with a wonderful motive! May Christ richly rewards you!Yes, it is the same God and the same Christ. But as you say your fiance “used to be Catholic”, you must realize that he did desert something, if only what you and he see as one of many denominations.
I don’t know the dynamics in his family. But I’d like to share a little of the dynamics that were going on in my life during the time I was away from the Catholic Church attending a Protestant church. The Catholics who were concerned that I left the Catholic Church were the ones who took their faith seriously. I know it just about broke my mother’s heart. She tried to support my “spirtiual growth”, but it just about crished her.

While some people treat the Catholic Church like just one of many denominations, the Catholic Church sees herself as the Church established by Jesus Christ when He said to Peter, “upon this rock I will build My Church”. For Catholics who seriously believe that Jesus came to establish His Church (and that the Church gave us the Bible, not the other way around), it saddens us when people leave.

In the passage from John 6 that we discussed earlier, some disciples left after Jesus told them that they should “eat His flesh and drink His blood.” Catholics believe that we do this literally at Mass. Like the disciples who left, some people find the teachings of Jesus in the Catholic Church “too hard” and leave. Others never learned the Catholic faith well enough to know what they left.

I know my faith grew during the time that I was away from the Catholic Church, but I also know something was missing in those other churches I attended. And I know my mother was praying and offering up her suffering that I would come back to the Catholic Church. I eventually did and my husband joined it too. I pray for grace so I never walk away from Jesus and His Church again.

Dear friend

In it’s good time and at the Lord’s will a bud will open up and become a flower, not that all that is within that bud is less than the flower, all that is within the bud is the flower. Though the bud has not fulfilled it’s fullness in being a flower, still the beauty of the flower is within the bud.

I have seen many posts on here with a great deal of snobbery. Maybe elitism. Your post is not one of them, but there is a danger that to people of other faiths, we seem as if we look down on the rest of the Christian faiths in the world. We Catholics are full of pride!

I don’t look down on anyone else outside of my faith. I am more worried about my call to Catholicism and if I deserve it, if I can fulfill it and if my bud will bloom into a flower. I am more worried about those sitting in Church and their and my own motives than I am about those who are not.

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa

---

Dear friend

God’s Truth be with you and God Bless you always. You and your fiance will find the Truth if you sincerely go after it in your hearts.

Teresa

 

[gardenswithkids]

springbreeze:

In it’s good time and at the Lord’s will a bud will open up and become a flower,

Yes, patience is one virtue that I should cultivate! I frequently grow frustrated waiting for gardens to blooms in God’s time as I fear they never will. (Around my home, the buds are often picked too early by eager little hands wanting to help me. Perhaps I do the same with God.)

springbreeze:

I have seen many posts on here with a great deal of snobbery. Maybe elitism. Your post is not one of them…

Well I’m glad you didn’t think mine did, but after reading your earlier post. I re-read mine and edited. I fear it did have some of that snobbery, and I apologize to anyone I offended.

springbreeze:

We Catholics are full of pride!

Continuing the gardening theme from earlier, I once treated a weed over and over and over with weed killer and it kept popping right back up every few weeks. Finally I got out the shovel and decided to dig up the root. That wretched root was taller that my (then) five year old son! So it is with the sin of pride. I may have to spend my entire life digging out the roots of self-love and pride before I can finally be rid of that weed in my soul!

springbreeze:

I don’t look down on anyone else outside of my faith.

Nor do I. In fact, I sometimes envy that childlike confidence I once had in my salvation. I know everything is a grace from God, including the grace of faith to believe in Him, and the grace to know and do what He wants. But He seems to be asking a lot from me lately; while I am confident in God, I am not confident in myself. Which means I need to ask for yet more grace.

springbreeze:

I am more worried about my call to Catholicism and if I deserve it, if I can fulfill it and if my bud will bloom into a flower. .

From one who has read many of your posts, I suspect you are a fragrant blossom already.

springbreeze:

I am more worried about those sitting in Church and their and my own motives than I am about those who are not.

Yes, to whom much is given, much will be required.
I also fear for myself and those already in the Church. And frankly, that inspires me to pray for more Protestants to convert to the Catholic faith. Many converts come in with great love for Jesus and inspire the rest of us with their love for Him. Thay have stories of personaly sacrifice to obtain that pearl of great price that I once abandoned and many Catholics take for granted.

springbreeze:

God’s Truth be with you and God Bless you always. You and your fiance will find the Truth if you sincerely go after it in your hearts.

Once again, words of wisdom.

 

[springbreeze]

gardenswithkids:

Yes, patience is one virtue that I should cultivate! I frequently grow frustrated waiting for gardens to blooms in God’s time as I fear they never will. (Around my home, the buds are often picked too early by eager little hands wanting to help me. Perhaps I do the same with God.)

They will bloom , God desires it and trust in His Providence is paramount. I have often thought that, I, silly little old me, single handedly could change the world, we all think we can do great things for God. The truth is God acts and we are unworthy instruments of His grace. Nothing happens without the conviction of the Holy Spirit, we simply as Our Blessed Virgin Mother Mary did, give our fiat.

Continuing the gardening theme from earlier, I once treated a weed over and over and over with weed killer and it kept popping right back up every few weeks. Finally I got out the shovel and decided to dig up the root. That wretched root was taller that my (then) five year old son! So it is with the sin of pride. I may have to spend my entire life digging out the roots of self-love and pride before I can finally be rid of that weed in my soul!

I hate pride. All too often we can pass off this and that that we do and someone may give praise for, we can sincerely be nonchalant and give all praise to Christ Jesus. I know I have done this quite well and then find myself pridefully patting myself on the back for doing what God desires of me! What an irony! What absolute pride, the spiritual fineprint of pride is a real clincher of the soul! Pride is the biggest battle and all sin stems from pride, the ‘me’ factor, the ‘self’. If I could go inside myself and rip out the inner 'self ', the ‘pride-seeker’ and burn it, I would. It is not that easy though and it does take a whole lifetime, so deep is pride within all souls.

But He seems to be asking a lot from me lately; while I am confident in God, I am not confident in myself. Which means I need to ask for yet more grace.

He asks alot from you because the flower is ready to go into that dark nit-picking state! A type of seasonal hybernation, where the soul doesn’t bloom, nor does it grow, but it passively learns in everything it encounters and sees all the fine nuances and subtleties and is agonised over and over again by the ‘self’ and by the beauty of God. It’s a hurtful time for the soul and a real agony. The soul, the ‘flower’ seems to soak up nutrients though it doesn’t move nor flourish, on the contrary it seems to backslide and feel worse than ever, only to come back from it’s agony stronger in growth and flourishing fast!

I like your posts and as you garden and watch nature closely as I do, spending time looking at how God made the smaller things of creation you will also see, as I see, those smaller beautiful things that are comparable to the greater beautiful things, that is the human soul.

God Bless you and much love and peace to you always and those little hands that help you pick the flowers

TeresaQUOTE]

 

[amanda_nicole82]

springbreeze:

You don’t have to make apologies and if you are offended it is the people on this forum that should make apology to you. If I am the one who has offended you, then I really do apologise and I am sincerely sorry.

Please don’t apologize, nobody here offended me. When I said thanks for your concern but you don’t have to worry about me I wasn’t being sarcastic. Sorry if it came across that way!
Thanks for all of your words of encouragement. My fiance and I do pray for wisdom to understand the truth and to know God’s will for our life.
We also pray that lost sinners would come to know Christ, and to find their place within Christianity, as we have. Gardenswithkids, I think you understand how a few of my fiance’s family members feel. In speaking with other Catholics I am beginning to see how they feel certain ways (which is a good thing because they will be my family in 6 days!!) Once again, thanks for the words of encouragement, I will pray that we will all gain wisdom as we grow in Christ.
God Bless,
Amanda