At what point does it become idolatry?

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Ok, I will be the first to admit I am very ignorant. If I knew the answers I wouldn’t be bothering all of you lol.

I don’t know when it is or isn’t idolatry. I really don’t. I was raised Catholic but have been approached by Protestant arguments that seem to me to be equally convincing.

I would say that when a physical object like a statue becomes the central point of worship that yes it has become idolatry. I’m just not sure when it’s definately not.
Have you read about the graven image God commanded Moses to make in the wilderness?

Num 21:8-9
“Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and every one who is bitten, when he sees it, shall live.” 9 So Moses made a bronze serpent, and set it on a pole; and if a serpent bit any man, he would look at the bronze serpent and live.

Since only God can heal and save, isnt’ this idolatry?
 
I know Catholics defend their icons by saying that they are not really graven images, that they merely represent something else. So at what point does it stop being alright and turn into blasphemy. How far does it have to go?
When they say that the object they worship is God- or is due the honor that really only belongs to God. That practice is condemned by the Church.
 
I know Catholics defend their icons by saying that they are not really graven images, that they merely represent something else. So at what point does it stop being alright and turn into blasphemy. How far does it have to go?

Just so you know, all those other pagan religions techniquely aren’t worshipping statues, they too believe they are worshipping a representation of another power.
When it turns into blasphemy is hard to say. We’re talking about an existential type of experience so, I don’t know that there is a hard and fast rule. But, I do believe that the Holy Spirit is faithful to let us know when veneration goes too far.

On icons and other relgious art, I tend to view them in sort of an Eastern Orthodox way. To the East, those icons are kind of like a little bit of heaven. They are inspired. I view most religious art (and maybe most art in general) in the same way. Those things turn my heart and thoughts towards heaven and remind me that God speaks.

Maybe another example to clarify… Protestants venerate the Bible as the Word of God. Maybe not in the sense of kneeling before the book (although I’ve seen that), but in our civic swearing ins and so forth, we Americans put our hand on the Bible and swear an oath. So, on some level, we venerate Scripture. I also venerate these religious artworks because I believe them to be inspired by God. God speaks through them. God inspired the artist who created them. Same with music. I don’t know how a person could listen to Bach’s Saint Matthew’s Passion and not view the work as inspired and be inspired just by listening. I guess part of my personal veneration has to do with a wider view of what “God’s Word” is. In the same way, I think we should venerate all of creation on some level. God is an artist and like any good artist has put something of Himself in all that He has made.

I don’t know if that helps or not. Things like spirituality start to test the limits of what typed words can express.
 
So when people bend down in front of a statue, kiss its feet, and speak to it directly as though the statue can hear it, this is alright? Isn’t this prohibited in the ten commandments?
Show me that specifically in the Word of God please?
 
I know Catholics defend their icons by saying that they are not really graven images, that they merely represent something else. So at what point does it stop being alright and turn into blasphemy. How far does it have to go?

Just so you know, all those other pagan religions techniquely aren’t worshipping statues, they too believe they are worshipping a representation of another power.
There is presidence here and I think the answer is when the leadership breaks the image in half. In the old testiment they were told to look upon the serpant on the staff and they would be healed. When the people started to look upon the serpant and worship. God given authority broke the staff in half.

We have individuals who have God given authority to govern and rule/serve on His behalf. They are called the Magesterium of the Church and it consists of the Pope and the Bishops in communion with him. This is why it is so important to follow those who have been given His authority in the hyerarchtical structure that He established. He left us human servant leadership to keep us from the error that the Hebrews fell into with the serpant on the staff.
 
I know Catholics defend their icons by saying that they are not really graven images, that they merely represent something else. So at what point does it stop being alright and turn into blasphemy. How far does it have to go?

Just so you know, all those other pagan religions techniquely aren’t worshiping statues, they too believe they are worshipping a representation of another power.
Your wrong- idols were believed to hold the numinous power of the deity. Even today in Hinduism they believe just looking at the idol empowers a worshiper . It’s called darshan. The deity lived in the idol and it was treated as a deity…Damaging an idol would result in your demise.😛
 
Ok, I concede that my mention about pagan idolatry was off. I’ll omit that from further arguments.

But you say Catholics don’t view the cross as having special powers. I know many who seem to believe this, who wear crosses as though they were good luck charms. I know this isn’t the official position of the Church, but it still bothers me.
To be completely honest, sometimes it bothers me the way some people (mostly Protestants, but certainly not exclusive to them) treat their Bibles as good luck objects. Kissing them, waving them around like a sword, acting as if the book itself was God, and not the revealed Word of God.

And don’t get me started on the “band as center of worship” phenomenon one sees in Protestant churches. Watching them, one would think they’re worshipping the guitarists and singers. :eek:

It just goes to show that people are creations of both spirit and matter, and sometimes some of us cling too tightly to the matter.

But as you stated, it isn’t the official position of the Church, so it can’t be used against Her.
 
I know Catholics defend their icons by saying that they are not really graven images, that they merely represent something else. So at what point does it stop being alright and turn into blasphemy. How far does it have to go?

Just so you know, all those other pagan religions techniquely aren’t worshipping statues, they too believe they are worshipping a representation of another power.

I knew that LOL.​

As to the question - the issue is one, not of how much, but of direction. If for even one instant one directs one’s heart to any created thing & takes it for God - one has fallen into idolatry.

But no amount of devotion to a saint, of love for his relics, his picture, his image, or anything that puts one in mind of him, is idolatry - provided only that one remembers that the saint is a creature, & is not His Lord & Creator.
God is our God, & only He - in comparison with Him, nothing is good, nothing is holy. He is the Living God, & there neither is nor can be any other.

FWIW, there is no sense of strain or awkwardness involved in adoring God & venerating His Saints, no division of heart or mind or energy between Him & them - because they are not the same kind of being as He; For God is Unique, & altogether Incomparable. They share in His Holiness, in a manner befitting redeemed creatures.

There can be superstition in forgetting that Christ is the Head & holds the primacy - but not idolatry; though even the appearance of idolatry is to be avoided. This is harder to do than may at first appear, as we do not live in a society populated only by Christians: even the most restrained Christian piety will look blasphemous to a Muslim.

BTW - Catholicism is Christian. The phrase “other pagan religions” does therefore not apply 🙂 For it is not one of them.
 
To be completely honest, sometimes it bothers me the way some people (mostly Protestants, but certainly not exclusive to them) treat their Bibles as good luck objects. Kissing them, waving them around like a sword, acting as if the book itself was God, and not the revealed Word of God.

A few points:​

    1. It is a sword - “the sword of the Spirit which is is the Word of God” is a phrase very applicable to it
    1. It is entirely right to kiss it - if kissing ikons is not wrong, to kiss it is even further from being wrong, for it represents the revealed Word of God written. 3. As if that were not enough, the Gospel-book is kissed at every Mass;this a regular liturgical action, & thus part of the Church’s public prayer
    1. The Bible is to be loved - to kiss it, is an expression of love for it, & above all for Him Who is its Primary Author
    1. It is one of the most excellent of all possible gifts, so it is only right that it should be given at least as much love & honour & veneration as the representations of the Saints.
    1. By loving it, we become more open to loving it even more
    1. To act in a way which shows gratitude for it is a recognition of God’s Mercy & Goodness, & a tribute of praise to Him
    1. We are intended to acknowledge & confess His Greatness & Excellence.
      This is all a thousand miles away from the sort of superstition being objected to.
And don’t get me started on the “band as center of worship” phenomenon one sees in Protestant churches. Watching them, one would think they’re worshipping the guitarists and singers. :eek:

It just goes to show that people are creations of both spirit and matter, and sometimes some of us cling too tightly to the matter.

But as you stated, it isn’t the official position of the Church, so it can’t be used against Her.
 
But you say Catholics don’t view the cross as having special powers. I know many who seem to believe this, who wear crosses as though they were good luck charms. I know this isn’t the official position of the Church, but it still bothers me.
The cross is a powerful sign. Exorcists use it during exorcisms becasue Satan detests what the cross represents. Same with statues. They are just representations but they are also powerful signs. Our flag is a powerful sign too. People who trample on it, are, in essence, meaning to trample on our Country and/or government. People who salute it, are saluting the Country and what the Country means to them. People who try to destroy or blaspheme a statue of a Saint or a crucifix are doing the same. They are not blaspheming the statue or cross itself but what it represents.
 
I know Catholics defend their icons by saying that they are not really graven images, that they merely represent something else. So at what point does it stop being alright and turn into blasphemy. How far does it have to go?

Just so you know, all those other pagan religions techniquely aren’t worshipping statues, they too believe they are worshipping a representation of another power.
It is idolatry when you give the adoration due to God alone to anything other than the one true God. Catholics should not give that adoration to the icon or to who it represents (unless that is Jesus Christ/God, but you still don’t adore the icon itself).

Some pagans do actually adore the statues as gods, but even if they are only icons, they are still icons of false gods and they are therefore committing idolatry by giving the adoration due to God alone to things other than the one true God.
 

A few points:​

    1. It is a sword - “the sword of the Spirit which is is the Word of God” is a phrase very applicable to it
    1. It is entirely right to kiss it - if kissing ikons is not wrong, to kiss it is even further from being wrong, for it represents the revealed Word of God written. 3. As if that were not enough, the Gospel-book is kissed at every Mass;this a regular liturgical action, & thus part of the Church’s public prayer
    1. The Bible is to be loved - to kiss it, is an expression of love for it, & above all for Him Who is its Primary Author
    1. It is one of the most excellent of all possible gifts, so it is only right that it should be given at least as much love & honour & veneration as the representations of the Saints.
    1. By loving it, we become more open to loving it even more
    1. To act in a way which shows gratitude for it is a recognition of God’s Mercy & Goodness, & a tribute of praise to Him
    1. We are intended to acknowledge & confess His Greatness & Excellence.
      This is all a thousand miles away from the sort of superstition being objected to.
No, it isn’t. You say the Bible is to be loved. I agree. However, it is to be loved in a general sense; I have seen some people treat their particular KJV version of the Bible as if the very thing were worthy of worship, and not the God who gave us the words contained therein. A Bible, in and of itself, is nothing more than paper and ink, it is not a good luck charm. It is the words, the meaning of the words, and the God that gave us those words that are the point. Not the glue, wood pulp, and ink.

You speak of it as a sword in a spiritual sense. Yes. I am speaking of people who think the physical book is what is going to ward off evil, and not the faith in the God who gave us the words. You speak of kissing the Bible out of reverence for the One who gave it to us. I am speaking of people who are treating the Bible as some sort of sentient being- ones who would kiss the KJV only, and never think to show a fraction of the same “reverence” to other translations.

I am quite aware that the Bible is the holiest of treasures. I’m not talking about that. I’m talking about people who turn the actual, physical book into a good luck charm.
 
While I am sure it was unintentional, you made both a factual error and an error of omission in this statement.

Some idolaters do indeed worship the image itself. They believe their “deity” somehow occupies it.
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You are right. I remember a priest saying that he had visited a Hindu temple when it opened, and they had explained that they believe in the real presence of the god in the idol.
In a previous post someone asks why God prohibits idolatry. He forbids putting something or someone else above Him. We are not to put material goods above Him. The ten commandments are the guide. We must not covet our neighbour’s possessions, but be content with what we have. If we are in need we must use honest means to get what we need.
We are to worship Him alone, and obey Him alone. If there is a conflict between what others want us to do, whether it be a King or a Government or any other human authority. We have a conscience that God has put in us, and we have to follow that. He has also given us the Church as an outward authority and as Catholics we are supposed to conform our conscience to the teaching of the Church. It’s in the Catechism somewhere. It’s also the teaching of the saints.
 
I know Catholics defend their icons by saying that they are not really graven images, that they merely represent something else. So at what point does it stop being alright. How far does it have to go?
The highest honor and worshipthat is possible is given to God alone, and that is called in “Latria.” After that is “dulia,” and that is given to all the angels and saints in heaven. After that there are various grades of honor and respect. We are told to honor our parents. We are to honor the King (and rulers in general). We must honor our superiors. The wife must honor her husband.

So, in summary, Latria is the honor and worship due God Alone. So Catholics never worship statues or the saints. The honor and respect given to saints is more like that given to family members. No should ever give Latria to anyone other than God.

Your servant in Christ.
 
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