At what point in church history were women allowed to sing during Mass?

[RosalieM]

To RosalieM…As for the castrati…In my humble opinion to mutilate for “art” is and was not enough. We are talking about greed. The dream of wealth (and we were talking about MAJOR wealth), fame & POWER is something that even exists today. This is nothing new. Think of what some even now are willing to do to themselves and others to attain it!

I was referring to those who employed them and paid them; thereby encouraging the practice for the sake of hearing the sound they produced… Supply and demand:shrug:

 

[yablabo]

I’m surprised no one batted an eyelash at the occurence of “the castrati” for so long. People were actually mutilating boys so they could sing a certain way. This is barbaric and disgusting . Why did no one put a stop to it immediately?

The same reason why no one puts a stop to the mutilation of boys done now in circumcision: because the people in power see the mutilation as beneficial.

– Nicole

 

[Sarabande]

Brava Sarabande you are right!

Aww… Thanks, Hmgbrd. Always nice to get a Brava. And BRAVA to you as well.

Remember this was not just a “church” phenomenon. The Church as far as I know never approved of the phenomenon of the castrato, but on the other hand they profited from the unfortunate ones who weren’t good enough to reach the heights of a star solo career by being able to use them in the choirs of the day.

Right. I re-read more of my book I talked about in my previous post. In one of the earlier chapters. It goes into a little more with the Church’s problem in regards to this.

The Church, of course, was in a bit of a bind. It* had* to condemn castration - it always had - but, at the same time, it wanted the castrati in its choirs. So, it did both things: it issued edicts damning the practice of castration, and it recruited the best of castrati in its service. The justification for this paradoxical policy was issued by Pope Clement VIII (1592-1605): castration could be authorized, he wrote, solely “ad honorem Dei” - for the glory of God.

It goes on to say that the Count Giovanni de Bardi was more the likely the one who drafted the pope’s policy in this subject. He was also very instrumental in the origins of opera in Florence. Clement had brought him to Rome in 1592 and was more than likely part of the audition process when the castrati were first brought into the Sistine Choir in 1599.

Don’t forget what I wrote once earlier in this post. There were other men singing in the upper vocal range before the castrati. These men specialized in falsetto singing. (just like our countertenors of today) This is documented.

You are right again! Actually in this same chapter, the author does talk about how the “falsetti” singers “furiously opposed” the introduction of the castrati into the choisr. But Pope Clement was so impressed by the abilities of the castrati (most of the falsetti, according to the author, were apparently tenors and not the true counter-tenors, so I can’t imagine them sounding that great as compared to castrati) that he intervened to be sure that he got his way. And thus, the falsetti were replaced by the castrati in the churches with the idea of the falsetto voice was “contra natura”, whereas the castrati voice became thought of as “sincero”.

I know there is a lot of discussion with the castrati on this thread, but I think it is am important factor to be discussed when dealing with when, how, why women were not allowed and then permitted to sing/perform in churches and in the public arena themselves. It helps to understand the culture of the times, and thus helps to understand the “why’s”.

Well, I now have to go to an opera concert rehearsal myself and then to my church job. So, I look forward to reading more and discussing more. This has been quite fun and interesting and great for exercising my “pregnancy head”.

 

[Hmgbrd]

I was referring to those who employed them and paid them; thereby encouraging the practice for the sake of hearing the sound they produced… Supply and demand:shrug:

Hi RosalieM, Yes always look to the money! And the money was controlled by the people in power, the aristocacy and heads of state. Some castrati were paid in gold and given powerful positions in court. See Sarabande’s description of Count Giovanni di Bardi and his connection to Clement VIII.

 

[RosalieM]

The same reason why no one puts a stop to the mutilation of boys done now in circumcision: because the people in power see the mutilation as beneficial.

– Nicole

I’m sorry, circumcision is not mutilation. I’ll be leaving this thread now.

 

[LittleDavid]

I’m sorry, circumcision is not mutilation. I’ll be leaving this thread now.

Aww, don’t leave…we need your (name removed by moderator)ut every now and then!