Atheism and the mind as pure matter

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Atheists use the human mind to come to the conclusion that God does not exist. However, if He does not exist, then the mind is made purely of matter. If the mind is made purely of matter, what rational reason would we have to think that this matter would be able to arrive at the truth of God’s nonexistence? If our mind is just matter, how do we know that this matter is reliable?
 
Hello Sarpedon,

Your question is a variation of Alvin Plantinga’s “Evolutionary Argument Against Naturalism” (EAAN).

Essentially, the proposition “God does not exist” (or possibly “there is insufficient evidence for God’s existence”) is a claim that depends on whether or not our cognitive faculties are reliable to bring about true beliefs. In fact, all propositions assume that they are reliable. The problem is this: if both evolution and naturalism are true, what is the probability that our cognitive faculties are designed specifically for the aim of the production of true beliefs?
 
Atheists use the human mind to come to the conclusion that God does not exist. However, if He does not exist, then the mind is made purely of matter. If the mind is made purely of matter, what rational reason would we have to think that this matter would be able to arrive at the truth of God’s nonexistence? If our mind is just matter, how do we know that this matter is reliable?
These questions are based on a misunderstanding. The mind is not matter, it is the product of the brain (which is matter).

Take 6 carbon atoms. They are fully matter. Arrange them in the shape of flat hexagon, and they will form graphite. Alternately, arrange them in the shape of an octahedron and the result is diamond. Same building blocks, different arrangement, and the two substances are totally different. The hardness of the diamond and softness of the graphite are called emergent attributes and they cannot be explained by or reduced to the six carbon atoms.

The arrangement, or pattern of these atoms is the basis of the explanation. The arrangement or pattern is information and information is not matter.

The mind is an emergent attribute of the brain. The mind’s working cannot be reduced to the building blocks of neurons.

Does this help?

I know you asked much more than that. I did not address your other questions. If you are interested, let me know, and I will return to those.
 
Ateista,

Thanks for your response. Even if the mind is not matter, does it really change the argument? I would think that in an atheistic system whatever exists has essentially the same attributes as materialistic matter in regards to the argument (for example, purposeless existence).

This is kind of an aside, but do you think information exists outside of the mind? I think graphite and diamonds themselves are made purely of matter that has a specific spatial arrangement. When our mind recognizes this, it becomes a concept in our brain. Do you believe that this concept actually exists? If every lifeform went extinct, obviously a pattern of atoms would still exist. Does the information still exist?

BTW as a theist I wouldn’t necessarily hold that the concept would exist in the brain, because the mind is also spiritual.

If you’d like to comment on the rest, I’d be pleased to hear your opinion.

BTW the Church teaches realism, that the mind can know truth, which I believe in as do all scientists. There’s a lot of heretical philosophies denying the ability to know truth, which I do not intend to support. I’m not trying to argue against realism, just the logic of believing in it without God. Does anyone know if the church teaches that realism has to be taken on faith or can be proven?

Thanks,
Sarpedon
 
Even if the mind is not matter, does it really change the argument?
I would think so. You said that without God, the mind is pure matter. It seems that we can agree that the mind is not pure matter and so far have not postulated a God.
I would think that in an atheistic system whatever exists has essentially the same attributes as materialistic matter in regards to the argument (for example, purposeless existence).
Could you claify, please? I am not sure what you mean.
This is kind of an aside, but do you think information exists outside of the mind? I think graphite and diamonds themselves are made purely of matter that has a specific spatial arrangement. When our mind recognizes this, it becomes a concept in our brain. Do you believe that this concept actually exists? If every lifeform went extinct, obviously a pattern of atoms would still exist. Does the information still exist?
Yes, the pattern (or spatial arrangement) or information exists independently of the minds. The concepts, however, do not exist. An example is a CD player, which plays Beethoven’s Ninth in a forest void of human beings. The air vibrations are still there, the animals still hear a “noise”, but the Ninth is not there. Or, as Click and Clack said once: if a husband is alone in the forest and his wife is not there, and he says something… is he still wrong? 🙂
BTW as a theist I wouldn’t necessarily hold that the concept would exist in the brain, because the mind is also spiritual.
I cannot comment on this, except to clarify that the concepts are not in the brain, they are in the mind.
 
I would think so. You said that without God, the mind is pure matter. It seems that we can agree that the mind is not pure matter and so far have not postulated a God.
What the mind is actually composed of is of little importance, assuming atheism. For example, lets say that energy and matter are two completely different entities and the the mind is composed of pure energy instead of pure matter. The argument still seems to hold, because there is still no reason (that I am aware of) to assume that this energy would be able to arrive at the truth of God’s nonexistence. It doesn’t really matter if the mind is matter, energy, antimatter, or whatever because the problem applies to them all without God.
Yes, the pattern (or spatial arrangement) or information exists independently of the minds. The concepts, however, do not exist. An example is a CD player, which plays Beethoven’s Ninth in a forest void of human beings. The air vibrations are still there, the animals still hear a “noise”, but the Ninth is not there. Or, as Click and Clack said once: if a husband is alone in the forest and his wife is not there, and he says something… is he still wrong? 🙂
If the information exists independently of our minds and is not matter, what is it?

The sound vibrations are pure energy (analogous to matter). If information is not the mental concept, and not matter or energy, what is it?
 
What the mind is actually composed of is of little importance, assuming atheism. For example, lets say that energy and matter are two completely different entities and the the mind is composed of pure energy instead of pure matter. The argument still seems to hold, because there is still no reason (that I am aware of) to assume that this energy would be able to arrive at the truth of God’s nonexistence. It doesn’t really matter if the mind is matter, energy, antimatter, or whatever because the problem applies to them all without God.
The mind is neither matter, nor energy (since they are the same) it is the activity of the brain.

God’s alleged existence is a hypothesis. The concept of a god (any god) certainly exists. But there are also zillions of other hypotheses out there. One must examine each hypothesis and see if there is some supporting evidence for them. If there is no evidence, one is free to discard the hypothesis as irrelevant. And that is what an atheist does.
If the information exists independently of our minds and is not matter, what is it?

The sound vibrations are pure energy (analogous to matter). If information is not the mental concept, and not matter or energy, what is it?
I hoped to clarify it with the carbon example. Let me give another example. Suppose there are 3 pieces of wooden sticks on the ground (about the same length). If they happen to be arranged so that the end of each stick connects to end of one of the other sticks, they form a triangle.

The triangular shape is there whether there is anyone there to recognize it. That is a pattern, or arrangement or information. (Pick whichever you prefer). The mental concept of a triangle, the recognition of a triangle presupposes a suffiently developed mind to understand it.
 
The mind is neither matter, nor energy (since they are the same) it is the activity of the brain.
I was using energy as an example of how what the mind is actually composed of is of little importance. It seems that the argument would be the same regardless of whether the mind is matter or energy, or neither (as you believe). You could put any materialistic entity of the place of matter or energy, and as far as I know, the argument would be the same.

I probably shouldn’t have used matter in the first example, that was just what came to mind because of the brain. I would now replace it with “a materialistic entity”. What do you think of the argument now?
God’s alleged existence is a hypothesis. The concept of a god (any god) certainly exists. But there are also zillions of other hypotheses out there. One must examine each hypothesis and see if there is some supporting evidence for them. If there is no evidence, one is free to discard the hypothesis as irrelevant. And that is what an atheist does.
Assuming that the mind can know truth. I believe it can (as does the Church), and you must also as an atheist. This goes back to the original argument- if God does not exist, there is no reason to assume that we would be able to know that He does not exist.
I hoped to clarify it with the carbon example. Let me give another example. Suppose there are 3 pieces of wooden sticks on the ground (about the same length). If they happen to be arranged so that the end of each stick connects to end of one of the other sticks, they form a triangle.
The triangular shape is there whether there is anyone there to recognize it. That is a pattern, or arrangement or information. (Pick whichever you prefer). The mental concept of a triangle, the recognition of a triangle presupposes a suffiently developed mind to understand it.
I understand what you’re saying, but couldn’t you argue that since the triangular arrangement is made purely of matter, the information must be matter before it is conceptualized in a mind?
 
God’s alleged existence is a hypothesis. The concept of a god (any god) certainly exists. But there are also zillions of other hypotheses out there. One must examine each hypothesis and see if there is some supporting evidence for them. If there is no evidence, one is free to discard the hypothesis as irrelevant. And that is what an atheist does.
In order to do this, we use our brain. If we use of brain in this fashion, we assume its accuracy. I see no reason to assume its accuracy without an intelligence behind it. As Darwin said:
With me, the horrid doubt always arises whether the convictions of man’s mind, which has been developed from the mind of the lower animals, are of any value or at all trustworthy. Would anyone trust in the convictions of a monkey’s mind…?
  • Charles Darwin
Unless, of course, God has made our minds to apprehend truth. This is what I believe and the Church teaches. (although I’m not sure if she teaches it can be proved or not, but I would think we have to take it on faith. Denying realism is heresy)

Quote from:
( Letter to William Graham, Down, July 3, 1881. In The Life and Letters of Charles Darwin Including an Autobiographical Chapter, ed. Francis Darwin (London: John Murray, Albermarle Street, 1887), Volume 1, pp. 315-316.)
Taken from: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionary_argument_against_naturalism
 
Assuming that the mind can know truth. I believe it can (as does the Church), and you must also as an atheist.
I most certainly agree. Let’s make sure that we are on the same wavelength when it comes to the word “truth”. To me it means that the mental concept or abstraction we build in our mind corresponds the reality of the world. If our concept does not agree with reality, we call that concept “false”. Do we agree on this?
This goes back to the original argument- if God does not exist, there is no reason to assume that we would be able to know that He does not exist.
Why not? If God does not exist, then he is not part of reality. If he is not part of reality, then the concept “God exists” is false. My wife currently is not in this room where I type this post. In other words, my wife does not “exist” in this room. Just because this is a negative statement, it does not mean that I cannot know it.
 
My wife currently is not in this room where I type this post. In other words, my wife does not “exist” in this room. Just because this is a negative statement, it does not mean that I cannot know it.
This is the problem. Through out your posts, you assume quite allot with out proof. As human beings, we tend to accept the reality that is given to us. Our brains appear to give us true reality; but in reality, experience is nothing but the (name removed by moderator)ut and output of information. In reality, one can only reasonably assume that you are receiving a signal; but one cannot know for sure that what you are receiving is in fact an accurate depiction of true reality. It could be quite different to what we see and think. If you are the result of nothing but blind chemical activity in the brain which is reliant on stimulus, then you are forced to see reality in the way that your brain is feeding it to you. The problem with that is; in theory, you can have the same sensation of touching or seeing something, without the need of those sensations being objectively real, since we are dealing with “information”.

One type of information produces a certain kind of experience. The receiver is in the place of subjectivity and by definition, cannot know, or have knowledge, without having blind-faith in the reality we are forced to receive. We receive nothing in real time, since every bit of information has to be processed by the brain before being experienced by the person. Everything you have learned: the laws physics, relativity, biology, evolution, cosmology; these are subjective interpretations which are reliant on information being objective reflections of reality. Our knowledge of physical laws is only relevant to the information we gather; but we have no proof of its actual objectivity. If one assumes that random information can produce the appearance of Intelligence and logic given so many shuffles, then you surely you cannot reasonable assume that the information you experience, which you receive from outside your subjective self, is accurate, free from error, or real. In fact it could all just be a figment of your imagination. The point is, you are relying on a biological system, which is the produce of billions of years of blind error, blind mutations, blind cause and effect, blind environmental stimulus and blind chemical reactions in the brain. What truly objective evidence do you have, which proves that your brain is working in the way that you think it does.
Theres no scientific experiment to prove that it does, because no matter how objective you try to be, everything is subjective and is clouded by subjective beliefs.

If your basing truth on the brain; then it is silly to speak of rationality, because sensory perception cannot provide immediate proof of your rationality; It only proves that the information you do recieve, has a consistent order. We have no evidence that the function of you brain is to provide accurate dipictions of reality. So why trust it?

In all truth and reality, the only thing you can know to be objectively true, is that your “mind” exists; because that is your immediate subjective experience which cannot contradict. From this stand point, there is absolutely no reason what so ever to think that mind is dependent on the brain. Everything, including physical reality, is subjective information which cannot be proven. It follows inescapably from my premises, that Absolute naturalism is based on unsupportable evidence, because, to begin with, it is based on information from an unknown source. Knowing this, I would be very humble when making assumptions about the relationship between mind and matter. It is not the same as an atom and a diamond. We are dealing with experinece rather then blind objective matter.

Faith, as into believe, is the beginning of knowledge.

Peace.
 
. The mind is not matter…
The personal will is immaterial. True.
. It is the product of the brain (which is matter).
In what sense?

1.Do you mean that the brain is the natural meduim by which we observe the emergence of a personal will which experiences and interacts with the natural world through the processes of the brain?
  1. Or are you speculating that the Brain is the ultimate cause of the existence of a person will?
If your laying claim to number two, then where is the scientific evidence which supports this claim?
Take 6 carbon atoms. They are fully matter. Arrange them in the shape of flat hexagon, and they will form graphite. Alternately, arrange them in the shape of an octahedron and the result is diamond. Same building blocks, different arrangement, and the two substances are totally different. The hardness of the diamond and softness of the graphite are called emergent attributes and they cannot be explained by or reduced to the six carbon atoms…
The question is; "why do they have that potentiality if the potentaility itself cannot be reduced to matter? The fact that they emerge from an arrangement of matter, does not sufficiently explain the given nature or behavior of a thing, and most certainly doesn’t prove to us that a diamond or a grafite is ultimately the creation of matter. Rather, what science shows, is that potentialities are attached to a given arrangement of matter. Therefore, it not reasonable to conclude that matter or energy is the final cause of an objects nature, though it is the medium by which a things is arise.
The arrangement, or pattern of these atoms is the basis of the explanation. .
It explains why i have amerged in a material body, but it does not explain me. The atheist simply leaps to the position of naturalism with absolutly no means of arriving at that conclusion, other then the fact that we percieve natural causes the universe.
The mind is an emergent attribute of the brain…
We only see a relationship between mind and matter.
The mind’s working cannot be reduced to the building blocks of neurons. .
Which is why naturalism does not work.
Does this help?.
It helps to prove the existence of the soul and the limits of science. Thankyou.
 
The mind is neither matter, nor energy (since they are the same) it is the activity of the brain.

God’s alleged existence is a hypothesis. The concept of a god (any god) certainly exists. But there are also zillions of other hypotheses out there. One must examine each hypothesis and see if there is some supporting evidence for them. If there is no evidence, one is free to discard the hypothesis as irrelevant. And that is what an atheist does.
A few points about this paragraph.
  1. “There are zillions of other hypotheses out there.” Is this really true? Is it not actually the case that all three major religions in the world (Judaism, Christianity, Muslim) believe in the existence of a supreme being (God)? If you compared the amount of people who believed in the existence of a God, and the amount of people who believed in some other “hypothesis,” do you really think that the latter number of people would come close to the former number?
  2. “If there is no evidence, one is free to discard the hypothesis as irrelevant.” On what do you base your conclusion that if you can’t prove that God exists, then you can assume that He does not exist? If you say something to me, and I can find no evidence that it is true, does not that mean that it is not true? Don’t you think that a “hypothesis” that millions of other (including equally, and possibly more intelligent) human beings have accepted and, significantly large numbers of people have heroically laid down their lives for is worth giving at least some “benefit of the doubt”?
Furthermore, exactly what kind of evidence are you looking for to prove or disprove the “hypothesis”? Scientific evidence?
Assuming that God (an all-powerful, supreme being) exists, do you really expect him to submit to laboratory experiments? Would that not be arrogance on the part of a human?
Science is intrinsically incapable of finding God (if he exists), simply because science is the study of nature, and God (if he exists) is supernatural. Science is incapable of finding anything beyond nature, of finding anything that is not a part of nature. If you attempt to use your stomach to prove that your toe hurts, you won’t find any evidence to support your “hypothesis” that your toe hurts.

I propose that as long as you use science to attempt to discover whether something intrinsically outside of science exists, you will find no evidence. No evidence for or against it.

Would there not be other non-scientific ways of connecting with God and finding out that He exists (assuming the possibility that He exists)?

How about prayer, for one?

How about saying sincerely (aloud or in one’s mind) “God, if you are there, please make your existence known to me.”

If God does indeed exist, would you concede at least the possibility that He will answer your prayer and convince you of his existence (either right away, or over a matter of time)?
If you think that a ghost may exist in the room (and I am not saying that God is a ghost), do you reach out and try to touch it, or do you simply ask if it’s there and see if you get a response?

Is that not a more legitimate way of discovering whether God exists?
 
A few points about this paragraph.

I propose that as long as you use science to attempt to discover whether something intrinsically outside of science exists, you will find no evidence. No evidence for or against it.
“No evidence for or against it.”

I correct myself.

Using science you will not find out about anything except nature.
By observing what nature is, of course, you could use this information to talk about God, or present it as evidence of his existence/non-existence.

An example would be to say that nature is logical, and so it must be made by a logical being (God).
 
Atheists use the human mind to come to the conclusion that God does not exist. However, if He does not exist, then the mind is made purely of matter. If the mind is made purely of matter, what rational reason would we have to think that this matter would be able to arrive at the truth of God’s nonexistence? If our mind is just matter, how do we know that this matter is reliable?
We don’t know that this matter is reliable.

One of the greatest achievements for mankind(a close 2nd to written language) would be the scientific method.

We cannot “arrive” at a correct conclusion purely by using our minds. It’s kind of the whole point of Science… to prove something and the scientific method does that.

Really, the human mind comes to a conclusion that God does exist, in the same way that the human mind comes to the conclusion he does not.

The human mind has also conviced people that the ligthening is an angry god and that rain is a sad god. The mind, is not a very good judge of reality.

Sorry to say, but for the most part, the majority of athiests, aren’t interested in what the mind can concoct, they are only interested in what can be proven.
 
Sorry to say, but for the most part, the majority of athiests, aren’t interested in what the mind can concoct, they are only interested in what can be proven.
How do you propose to prove things without using our mind?
 
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