Atheism Issues

[ateista]

Saying something “simply exists” is also not an explanation and also puts rational explanation forever out of reach.

Actually, no. It leaves it as an open question. Which, in my eyes, is a fruitless, useless and irrelevant question.

 

[BlaineTog]

Your definition is not mine. But, even if your definition would be correct, mercy is getting less than you deserve… so there can be no overlap.

No, more. As in, “I’m going to let you go, but it’s more than you deserve.”

 

[ateista]

No, more. As in, “I’m going to let you go, but it’s more than you deserve.”

Your use of the language is a mystery to me… “more than” you deserve??? Sorry my friend, this is simply ridiculous. Mercy means to give a punishment which is less than deserved. To give a higher punishment is called a “hanging judge”…

 

[BlaineTog]

Your use of the language is a mystery to me… “more than” you deserve??? Sorry my friend, this is simply ridiculous. Mercy means to give a punishment which is less than deserved. To give a higher punishment is called a “hanging judge”…

And then would be unjust.

 

[Tim_Kirchoff]

Your use of the language is a mystery to me… “more than” you deserve??? Sorry my friend, this is simply ridiculous. Mercy means to give a punishment which is less than deserved. To give a higher punishment is called a “hanging judge”…

I believe you know what he means. And your constant refusals to address arguments because the language wasn’t “right”, according to you, is quite frankly why this will most likely be my last post on this thread.

 

[Aleii]

BlaineTog:

Let’s say you have a woman. She’s at a bar. She’s had a few drinks, but she’s still mostly in control of herself. Then, someone slips her a drug that makes her extremely amenable to suggestion. Would you say that she still has her free will completely intact? It isn’t impossible for her to say yes or no, but it’s much more difficult for her to say no. For my money, she’s been impaired

Yes, she has been impaired against her will, as she did not ask to have this drug slipped in her drink. God doesn’t have to show himself in his glory, he could take the form of a phone call. How is this making it impossible for me to say no then? All I am looking for is understanding. Not grandiose miracles or astonishing feats or overwhelming splendor, just understanding. To me, it seems like I have already been drugged against my will, and I am merely asking for the activated charcoal to help my mind clear.

BlaineTog:

And what if you refuse, and withdraw your hand?

Then I will make it concretely clear the rationale of why the glass must be upright, perhaps even show the person with a glass of my own, or, ask them to explain their rationale so that I may correct errors in understanding. Or, we may explore alternate ways such as pouring water directly into the person’s mouth. You don’t simply give up when both are still interested in coming to a solution.

BlaineTog:

No, you’ve used your free will to demand. Demand implies right to knowledge, and you have no such right.

How is pleading with God for understanding, for rationale, for help, a demand? I have no right to understanding, yet, I may possibly be judged based upon my failure due to lack of understanding?

BlaineTog:

[open to misinterpretation]Correct.

Have you ever had a teacher that was extremely vague, did not directly answer your questions, did not overtly correct misunderstandings when you go to them for help after class, nor did they give you solid resources to go to? If so, what did you think of them? If you ask a math teacher to help you understand why 2+2=9, or if it even does, why would they turn you away when you have come to them requesting help?

BlaineTog:

More like there are ten teachers each trying to tell you something different, because God wants you to choose your indoctrination rather than have it forced upon you.

Yes, there are many people trying to tell you very different things, and no strong evidence to show that one of those is absolutely correct. God makes it clear in the Bible that he wants people to become Christian, and employs the followers to spread the Good News. What is the point between choosing between 1,000 answers when there is one correct one? People try hard to get the correct answer; the vast majority want to do what is right. Why make them play this vague game? What do people, or god, have to gain by having people (based in large part on where they are born) choose between so many religions that look the same?

And if you choose the wrong one to live your life by, you have a very good chance that you are living immorally, hurting others, and possibly could be damned for an eternity.

 

[ateista]

I believe you know what he means. And your constant refusals to address arguments because the language wasn’t “right”, according to you, is quite frankly why this will most likely be my last post on this thread.

I also know what he “means”. Tries to sweep the problems under the rug, by misusing words. Language is supposed to facilitate understanding, not confuse it. If even such simple, everyday words as “justice” and “mercy” are subject to willfull misinterpretation, a dialog is next to impossible.

 

[BlaineTog]

Yes, she has been impaired against her will, as she did not ask to have this drug slipped in her drink. God doesn’t have to show himself in his glory, he could take the form of a phone call.

And that’s what life is.

Then I will make it concretely clear the rationale of why the glass must be upright, perhaps even show the person with a glass of my own, or, ask them to explain their rationale so that I may correct errors in understanding. Or, we may explore alternate ways such as pouring water directly into the person’s mouth. You don’t simply give up when both are still interested in coming to a solution.

Nor does God. Yet, we persevere in our insanity. Because that’s what sin is, you know: madness. The preference of yourself over God is so very stupid it’ s mind-boggling.

How is pleading with God for understanding, for rationale, for help, a demand?

“Demand” is defined as, “to request urgently and forcefully,” “claim as due or just,” and “to request urgently and forcefully.” It’s not just “Please, if you want, show yourself, if it’s not too much trouble,” but “God, you had better show yourself, because otherwise I’m not believing in you.” That fits the definition of “demand.”

I have no right to understanding, yet, I may possibly be judged based upon my failure due to lack of understanding?

Correct. Because though you have no right to understanding, and therefore no grounds to demand it, God gives you a lifetime of opportunities to understand anyway. Life is not a test, but a choice, and everything in it is underlined and coated in spirit.

Have you ever had a teacher that was extremely vague, did not directly answer your questions, did not overtly correct misunderstandings when you go to them for help after class, nor did they give you solid resources to go to? If so, what did you think of them? If you ask a math teacher to help you understand why 2+2=9, or if it even does, why would they turn you away when you have come to them requesting help?

Let me ask you a yes-or-no question: is murder, defined as the killing of an innocent human being, wrong?

Yes, there are many people trying to tell you very different things, and no strong evidence to show that one of those is absolutely correct. God makes it clear in the Bible that he wants people to become Christian, and employs the followers to spread the Good News. What is the point between choosing between 1,000 answers when there is one correct one? People try hard to get the correct answer; the vast majority want to do what is right. Why make them play this vague game? What do people, or god, have to gain by having people (based in large part on where they are born) choose between so many religions that look the same?

Because that’s how it’s gotta be. Oh, and choosing the wrong religion doesn’t necessarily mean you’re not choosing God. I have faith that there are people in most religions (maybe not all; no scientologists, for example ) who will make it to heaven even though their understanding of God is murkier than that of others.

And if you choose the wrong one to live your life by, you have a very good chance that you are living immorally, hurting others, and possibly could be damned for an eternity.

The Law has been written on everyone’s hearts. Everyone knows that certain lifestyles (such as pedophilia) are wrong. Living rightly is more important than understanding perfectly, though understanding better helps you know how to live more correctly.

 

[Aleii]

“Demand” is defined as, “to request urgently and forcefully,” “claim as due or just,” and “to request urgently and forcefully.” It’s not just “Please, if you want, show yourself, if it’s not too much trouble,” but “God, you had better show yourself, because otherwise I’m not believing in you.” That fits the definition of “demand.”

You have not shown how I have demanded that God give me understanding. I have never forcefully stated that I am due it to God, I just simply have called out to God asking, pleading for help. I have not made ultimatums, I have not made threats, Your statement “God, you had better show yourself, because otherwise I’m not believing in you” absolutely does NOT fit how I have asked God. A lot of people automatically assume that if one is agnostic or atheist, they have demanded that God give them proof, or else, and that they are evil self centered people. Please do not automatically assume this.

Correct. Because though you have no right to understanding, and therefore no grounds to demand it, God gives you a lifetime of opportunities to understand anyway. Life is not a test, but a choice, and everything in it is underlined and coated in spirit.

Very murky opportunities that you already agreed can be easily misunderstood.

Let me ask you a yes-or-no question: is murder, defined as the killing of an innocent human being, wrong?

yes

Because that’s how it’s gotta be. Oh, and choosing the wrong religion doesn’t necessarily mean you’re not choosing God. I have faith that there are people in most religions (maybe not all; no scientologists, for example ) who will make it to heaven even though their understanding of God is murkier than that of others.

This topic is of great debate to Catholics. Many say that without the sacraments of confession and Eucharist, among others, one has slim chance of eternal life, especially if one has no faith.

The Law has been written on everyone’s hearts. Everyone knows that certain lifestyles (such as pedophilia) are wrong. Living rightly is more important than understanding perfectly, though understanding better helps you know how to live more correctly.

Not everyone agrees on things such as contraception, abortion, etc. Most people work under the idea of a social contract or the golden rule. I fully agree that living your best is more important than understanding. However, most Catholics say that having faith is more important than living correctly, (and that if you have faith you will almost by default live correctly)though that both are good and “needed”.

 

[Aleii]

And that’s what life is

I’ve tried for years to force myself to see it, but I just haven’t been able to make it work.

 

[BlaineTog]

You have not shown how I have demanded that God give me understanding. I have never forcefully stated that I am due it to God, I just simply have called out to God asking, pleading for help. I have not made ultimatums, I have not made threats, Your statement “God, you had better show yourself, because otherwise I’m not believing in you” absolutely does NOT fit how I have asked God. A lot of people automatically assume that if one is agnostic or atheist, they have demanded that God give them proof, or else. Please do not automatically assume this.

Taking his silence to mean his nonexistence means that, however politely you asked, it was a demand. If you ask God a question, he will give you one of three answers: Yes, No, or Wait. But he doesn’t usually deliver them via shining brilliant angel, or by knocking a glass of water of the table mysteriously. He answers how is best.

You can plead for help all you want, but if you don’t end with, “But not my will but yours be done,” it is de facto a demand.

yes

That wasn’t murky at all, was it?

This topic is of great debate to Catholics. Many say that without the sacraments of confession and Eucharist, among others, one has slim chance of eternal life, especially if one has no faith.

And perhaps that is so, but “slim chance” isn’t the same as “no chance,” in any case. And in any case, we have not been given the demographics of heaven; we don’t know how many are there. Maybe it’s just Hitler and Stalin; that would still constitute “many,” as every human is precious to God and losing even one would be horrible. Maybe it’s everyone but the saints. We just don’t know. When the apostles asked Jesus how many are in hell and how many are in heaven, Jesus answered, “strive to answer,” so that they would neither despair at entering nor take their entering for granted. The fact of the matter is it doesn’t really matter how many people are going to make it to heaven if you’re supposed to try as hard as you can to get in anyway.

Not everyone agrees on things such as contraception, abortion, etc. Most people work under the idea of a social contract or the golden rule.

People disagree on the specifics and on individual cases sometimes, but there’s a thread that runs through all of us telling us how things should generally go.

I fully agree that living your best is more important than understanding. However, most Catholics say that having faith is more important than living correctly, (and that if you have faith you will almost by default live correctly)though that both are good and “needed”.

It’s tricky, because the two things influence each other, and faith is often hidden. If you’re doing good things, it’s because you have faith that you should be doing them (assuming you don’t have overriding ulterior motives), which means that even the atheist humanist has faith of a sort, even if it’s a confused faith that may sometimes cause him to do things less than perfectly. It’s as if you see three archery targets next to each other across a small field. If you hit any of the targets, good for you, but if you aim for the target to the left or to the right, you’re more likely to miss hitting a target altogether.

The only sacrament necessary for salvation is baptism, and that doesn’t necessarily have to happen with a priest and water.

 

[BlaineTog]

I’ve tried for years to force myself to see it, but I just haven’t been able to make it work.

Because of the way it is shaped, the human eye refracts light such that you can see things slightly better when they’re a little to the left or a little to the right of your direct line of vision. That’s why sometimes you can look up at the night sky, see a star a little off to the side, and then have it seem to disappear when you go looking for it.

Looking for God is a never ending thing here on earth. Even Mother Theresa had doubts, all throughout her life. It’s also not something you can force, any more than you can force your muscles to grow through force of thought or someone to fall in love with you. It’s something you have to just let happen. Keeping your eyes open and choosing paths that seem to lead closer to God rather than further will eventually bring you to God, not hijacking the observatory’s giant telescope, aiming it at the nearest city, and coving it inch by inch voraciously.

 

[Aleii]

Taking his silence to mean his nonexistence means that, however politely you asked, it was a demand. If you ask God a question, he will give you one of three answers: Yes, No, or Wait. But he doesn’t usually deliver them via shining brilliant angel, or by knocking a glass of water of the table mysteriously. He answers how is best.

You can plead for help all you want, but if you don’t end with, “But not my will but yours be done,” it is de facto a demand.

I did not ask God once and then hear nothing and then assume that meant God wasn’t there. I did not look for a miraculous sign. I did years of study, went on retreats, talked to priests, prayed, adoration, etc. Over and over tried to force myself to believe but I can’t make my mind believe that a table is a cat either. Because I can’t make out the logic of it, that’s why I can’t wrap my mind around Catholicism being real, and that’s why I border between agnostic and atheist (not simply because I heard nothing). Eventually it dawned on me that Catholicism makes as much sense to me as all the other religions out there, and it would be a lie to continue to call myself Catholic, so I am now a label that fits me - agnostic. It bothers me that it seems like you are trying in any way to make it seem like I demanded things of God, when you know almost nothing about me and my journey. Please stop these assumptions, it is simply not the way you state. I have assured you before and will assure you again that I have never been demanding in my ways, merely looking for answers this entire time. There are people that demand once, get nothing, and quit. It is wrong to put this label on every atheist/agnostic. It is also wrong to assume that if you don’t intimately know God exists, then you haven’t tried, or haven’t been sincere in your journey.

That wasn’t murky at all, was it?

How does this relate to God being real?

And perhaps that is so, but “slim chance” isn’t the same as “no chance,” in any case…. We just don’t know.

Yes, I understand this.

It’s tricky, because the two things influence each other, and faith is often hidden. If you’re doing good things, it’s because you have faith that you should be doing them (assuming you don’t have overriding ulterior motives), which means that even the atheist humanist has faith of a sort, even if it’s a confused faith that may sometimes cause him to do things less than perfectly. It’s as if you see three archery targets next to each other across a small field. If you hit any of the targets, good for you, but if you aim for the target to the left or to the right, you’re more likely to miss hitting a target altogether.

Ok, its interesting to hear how you perceive it, thanks.

The only sacrament necessary for salvation is baptism, and that doesn’t necessarily have to happen with a priest and water.

Yes, I know of emergency baptism and baptism of desire. My point was that many argue that without other things the church offers such as confession, the ability to get to heaven vastly decrease. But, as you said, much of that is in the realm of the unknown.

It’s something you have to just let happen.

Yes, I have a large list of books that I would still like to look through. I agree that it is a lifelong journey.

not hijacking the observatory’s giant telescope, aiming it at the nearest city, and coving it inch by inch voraciously.

hahaha