Atheism

[Tulkas]

I do have respect for christians, while my words may appear i am not sensative to your beliefs or religion, i am, but i am only trying to make an impact…

It amazes me, how ignorant christians are on beliefs such as atheism, diesm, or perhaps any other religion for that matter. Many people on this board have suggested that Atheists have nothing to live for except for the greed of money. This is not only insulting, but portrays such a negative sterotype for naive christians i can’t even begin to explain.

Let me set the record straight, while Atheists do not agree with your religion, they respect your right (assuming you don’t have complete blind faith) to worship whatever you wish. Yet, when you talk about Atheists, when we really covet things less materialistic then the catholic church and people, you convey us as greedy materialistic people. It is very insulting, and i beg you to please be educated on the matter before we post such things in an already naive community.

 

[Gilbert_Keith]

Many people on this board have suggested that Atheists have nothing to live for except for the greed of money.
I’m not one of those people. But I do believe that atheists are materialsits in the sense that they live (or think they live) only in a material world, a world absent spirit with no prospects of immortality. This attitude reduces man to only one of many animals like himself who live and die and return to the earth.

Not a pleasant prospect … which probably inclines, one would think, most atheists to live for the present moment … get the most you can out of life because this is the only life you get. So I suppose a kind of greed can set in for anything … money, sex, fame, power, etc.

I don’t see how atheism can create any greed for virtue or eternal life.

 

[El_Catolico]

I disagree with calling atheists greedy-money seekers. However, I cant say that I am very impressed with this new school of atheistic, humanistic, “rationalistic”, secularists. I personally think that many of them are simply very arrogant and condescending. Many of them, who just make a cursory reading of the Bible (attempting to find contradictions, of course), as if they know the Bible better than many Christian exegetes who have been studying the Bible their whole lives and about 2000 years of Christian study and reasearch. Just saying “thats just how it is” is not an explanation for why we exist.

Reading the atheist’s presumptuous and insulting responses to the conversion to theism of former leading atheist Anthony Flew disgusted me. They will attempt to caricature and find hidden motivations for anyone who becomes a theist; they cannot picture rational support against their beliefs. That, in and of itself, is narrow mindedness; it is far more narrow-minded than any fundamentalist could hope to be.

Pax Tecum

 

[Darrel]

I do have respect for Christians, while my words may appear I am not sensitive to your beliefs or religion, I am, but I am only trying to make an impact.

Why make an impact on behalf of Atheism? Is it for the purposes of clarity? Is Atheism organized in the world?

Let me set the record straight, while Atheists do not agree with your religion, they respect your right (assuming you don’t have complete blind faith) to worship whatever you wish. Yet, when you talk about Atheists, when we really covet things less materialistic then the Catholic Church and people, you convey us as greedy materialistic people. It is very insulting, and I beg you to please be educated on the matter before we post such things in an already naive community.

I have a question with regards to your being offended. Why would an Atheist care about not embracing greed or embracing materialism? These sins should not concern an Atheist as far as I know. Why embrace anything good at all? If I were an Atheist I would care about number one only until the day I fade to black. Why bother with anything decent at all? According to Atheist morality should be derived of false and ignorant religious pressure imposed by the ignorant. All morality would seem to be nonsense from the no God point of view. What is your idea of right and wrong based on and what is it’s foundation in a universe with no God?

-D

 

[Steve_Andersen]

For better or worse, bigotry however mild, is part of the human condition

a Christian might say that due to hubris and original sin that humans are destined to live in separate competing, suspicious groups. The mark of Cain the tower of babble are morality plays to explain the human condition

An atheist might opine that suspicions of those outside your intimate group was a survival trait and that those who protected the people with similar genetic makeup as they had increased the likelihood of those genes being passed on

Either way suspicion of “the other” is not a new thing…sad to say

I would hope that both groups could understand of each other

Of course the crucial question comes when each side wants to control what its children are exposed to

Then rationality goes out the door

 

[Steve_Andersen]

Darrel:

I have a question with regards to your being offended. Why would an Atheist care about not embracing greed or embracing materialism? These sins should not concern an Atheist as far as I know. Why embrace anything good at all?

People don’t do good only because of fear of punishment

People do good because it is…good

One could argue that being good simply under threat of hell is not really being good at all

It was the pagan Greek philosophers who first came up with the idea that virtue and not pleasure was the ultimate goal in life (or to be more accurate; they were the first to write it down)
The Christians merely built upon that

Darrel:

If I were an Atheist I would care about number one only until the day I fade to black

Really?
That is distressing

Darrel:

Why bother with anything decent at all?

because it is the right thing to do

Even out of simple enlightened self-interest “do unto others” makes sense”

 

[Darrel]

Really?
That is distressing

Why? There would be no point in morality if there were no God. I feel that if Atheist have faith in there religion of non-religion they should embrace self in faith. If we are simply animals then why act out these silly morals at all? I believe the opposite to be true that Christ is Lord and the truth is of him with regards to what is right and wrong. If Atheists have morals what are they based upon? Why is it wrong to Hate? Steal? Murder? Cheat? Envy? etc etc.

Everything has it’s root what are the moral roots in Atheism?

-D

 

[Genesis315]

Steve Andersen:

People do good because it is…good

One could argue that being good simply under threat of hell is not really being good at all

Why is good good? Who decides what is good? Why should I listen to what some dead greek guys thought was good? Why is their idea of good better than mine? This is the problem with atheists. Their idea of good has to come from somewhere. In the end, it is just simply what they judge as good based on their own opinion. There is no objective absolute.

Not all Catholics do good under threat of Hell. Most do it because they love God and they want to do what He says is good.

 

[Darrel]

Steve Andersen:

because it is the right thing to do

Even out of simple enlightened self-interest “do unto others” makes sense”

I think not,

True base humanity of the flesh says do unto others before they do unto you for the purpose of survival. It also says that others are irrelevant compared to self. I feel that it may be a tough pill for an Atheist to swallow when the truth is made clear.

Atheist’s morals in society are all based on the words of the very God they deny existing. When the Soviet Union began it left God behind for the sake of the system of government. The resulting ‘human’ system caused 20,000,000 deaths.

-D

 

[eptatorata]

Steve Andersen:

For better or worse, bigotry however mild, is part of the human condition

Indeed it is. For some, it’s a terrible offense that another dares to think differently, yet at the same time they are a convenient scape goat.

I would hope that both groups could understand of each other

I would settle for the invincibly ignorant on either side simply shutting up. A wish not likely to be granted, but there’s always hope, misplaced as it may be.

To speak of ‘both groups’ is misleading, though. Neither group is homogenuous and you will find three basic stances on either side: tolerance, apathy, and enmity. Within the narrow confines of this thread, there is little ambiguity who falls into which category, but it might be interesting to research larger demographics.

Of course the crucial question comes when each side wants to control what its children are exposed to

I would phrase it differently. A line is crossed when one side wants to control what the other side’s children are exposed to.

 

[Tulkas]

Darrel:

If I were an Atheist I would care about number one only until the day I fade to black. Why bother with anything decent at all? According to Atheist morality should be derived of false and ignorant religious pressure imposed by the ignorant. All morality would seem to be nonsense from the no God point of view. What is your idea of right and wrong based on and what is it’s foundation in a universe with no God?

-D

This, is almost the poster child of christianity, and it is quite sickening. Darrel, i thank you for re-affirming my atheist beliefs.

You need god present in order to act good in the world we live in? Is it fear of this supposed divinity that makes do “anything decent at all” because that is what i am drawing from your words. IF god did not exist, you would not do anything decent at all, and would sit around “Untill the day you fade to black”

Atheists do not sit around and wait for this day, we do not need some higher power telling us to go and do something with our lives. We live our lives to the fullest, because it is all we have, qutie the opposite of your statement. Perhaps when you find a reason to do ‘anything decent’ other than impressing god so you dont go to hell…perhaps then will you even begin to understand the basis of my belief.

Darrel:

Why? There would be no point in morality if there were no God. I feel that if Atheist have faith in there religion of non-religion they should embrace self in faith. If we are simply animals then why act out these silly morals at all? I believe the opposite to be true that Christ is Lord and the truth is of him with regards to what is right and wrong. If Atheists have morals what are they based upon? Why is it wrong to Hate? Steal? Murder? Cheat? Envy? etc etc.

Everything has it’s root what are the moral roots in Atheism?

-D

-D

THANK GOD SOMEBODY ASKED! The Answer? Logic! Think for yourself, it is almost instinctual what is good and what is ‘evil’.

Why is wrong to steal? murder? cheat? These all cause harm to others, and thus, is morally wrong.

Is it the Atheist who thinks for hismelf. He who can decifer whether his actions are wrong, not needing to go to a church

Is it this Atheist who the animal? Or is it the catholic who does not embrace is own being, who takes what is given to him as the truth, who cannot question his religion, and has no other reason to act out of goodness other than serving his god!!!

I doubt i will hear a reply from you, and if i do i will be much surprised and amused.

 

[Tulkas]

Genesis315:

Why is good good? Who decides what is good? Why should I listen to what some dead greek guys thought was good? Why is their idea of good better than mine? This is the problem with atheists. Their idea of good has to come from somewhere. In the end, it is just simply what they judge as good based on their own opinion. There is no objective absolute.

Yes, atheists do things becasue it is the right thing to do, who decides if it is good? Well, I am my own church. Thus, i decide. But how can i, an individual decide how something is good without the help of a church and a pope! Oh my whatever will i do!

Once again lets try to understand this belief a bit…Well, this is a simple example of how I, and probably many atheists may judge what is good. While these are not orignally mine, nevertheless they are good examples worth taking note to:

• Good is what one can get away with (might makes right).
• Rational self-interest is the basis for good.
• Service to others is the basis for good.
• Mortal pleasure is the basis for good.
• Lessening of suffering (in self and/or others) is good.

Genesis315:

Not all Catholics do good under threat of Hell. Most do it because they love God and they want to do what He says is good.

This is very true, but there is no strife with these people, most problems Atheists have with religion is “blind faith”. It is untill you question your beliefs, and learn from them, that u can truly understand.

 

[Darrel]

This, is almost the poster child of christianity, and it is quite sickening. Darrel, i thank you for re-affirming my atheist beliefs.

Sorry if I offended you.

You need god present in order to act good in the world we live in? Is it fear of this supposed divinity that makes do “anything decent at all” because that is what i am drawing from your words. IF god did not exist, you would not do anything decent at all, and would sit around “Untill the day you fade to black”

I was an atheist for a time actualy. In retrospect I think it was the fact that I had a decent set of Christian parents to raise me with good morals that I held tight to in this period of ignorance to Gods truth.

With regards to fear driving me to good you could not be more mistaken. It is Gods influence in my life through the Holy Spirit that causes good in Love. If you think that fear is what God inflicts to gain obediance then I cant blame you in your not wanting to believe in him. He changes the heart through truth and love and does not operate as a brutal monster.

Atheists do not sit around and wait for this day, we do not need some higher power telling us to go and do something with our lives. We live our lives to the fullest, because it is all we have, qutie the opposite of your statement.

I’m sorry you choose to face this idea that this is all you have. I recall an empty feeling of sorrow when I thought this. This void can only be filled by God. He is real and he is love.

Perhaps when you find a reason to do ‘anything decent’ other than impressing god so you dont go to hell…perhaps then will you even begin to understand the basis of my belief.

I have trust in Gods mercy and I know that he doesnt ask me to impress him. He asks me to choose of my own free will to invite him into my life and allow him to dwell within me. He is not offering me terror or threat he is offering me eternal life and grace and blessings in this life.

I doubt i will hear a reply from you, and if i do i will be much surprised.

Why would I not answer you? Your no threat at all, sorry if that offends you but if God is for me then who can be against me? Sorry again if I offended you.

-D

 

[Tulkas]

Darrel:

With regards to fear driving me to good you could not be more mistaken. It is Gods influence in my life through the Holy Spirit that causes good in Love. If you think that fear is what God inflicts to gain obediance then I cant blame you in your not wanting to believe in him. He changes the heart through truth and love and does not operate as a brutal monster.

-D

It amazes me how you say this, and yet, the few times i have been in a church, every time i have heard preach of hell, and eternal damnation. And i do not doubt you know of John Tetzel (SP?) , one of the most famous preachers of hell, damnation, and of course, indulgences. Perhaps the spark of the Reformation. I do not stereotype the entire christian religion, but i think it is hard not to deny that this fact of hell/damnation is drilled into young minds.

I recently attended an art history class, and many of the artworks of post roman and mostly reformation times, were directly related to guilting, or creating fear in the viewers eyes to bring them back to christianity. I did not analyse this, i assure you. It is text in my history book, written by historians on the intent of the catholic church…Though, by no means do i rest my argument on this single source.

And by the way, your apology is very appreciated, while unnecessary. By no means do i take offense, and I am sightly impressed by your apology in fact. Perhaps respect is rarely afforded by from a catholic to one with my beliefs.

Edit: Almost forgot, i feel no void in my life, by all we have i meant all WE(humanity, not atheists) have. I embrace mortality, and use it to live my life with full happiness. I belive this quotation is very significant to my belief on the matter::

“I do not intend to tiptoe through life only to arrive safely at death.”

 

[Darrel]

THANK GOD SOMEBODY ASKED! The Answer? Logic! Think for yourself, it is almost instinctual what is good and what is ‘evil’.

I missed your edit,

Human instict is twords survival and not twords good and evil. You may want to consider the idea that this universe could not have created it’s self. Humanity would be lucky if it possesed even one percent of all knowledge in this universe.

Atheist assume that they have all the answers Catholics profess to miracles, how do you explain the miraculous? An open mind beyond ego may help.

Why is wrong to steal? murder? cheat? These all cause harm to others, and thus, is morally wrong.

What difference does that make to an Atheist? What is the reason that it’s wrong to harm others? There are Godless people all over the world who do harm to others and sleep well at night. What is the basis of this moral in the teachings of Atheism?

Is it the Atheist who thinks for hismelf. He who can decifer whether his actions are wrong, not needing to go to a church

Did you figure out right and wrong, or did you have it taught to you? Are you descended from a long line of Atheist’s? The United States is a primarily Christian country. It’s legal foundation ie constitution was written by a bunch of Christians. American values hinge on Church teachings. The more that changes the worse it gets here and everyone knows it.

Is it this Atheist who the animal? Or is it the catholic who does not embrace is own being, who takes what is given to him as the truth, who cannot question his religion, and has no other reason to act out of goodness other than serving his god!!!

A Catholic/Christian has more self knowledge than the average person by far. God shows us his truth and the truth of ourselves. If you assume that being an Atheist is beyond religion in it’s superiority you are mistaken. Atheism is the un-religion that generaly allows people to custom tailor a lifestyle that easily justified without accountability. Is that strong or is it a cop out? All Atheist have that question looming in the backs of there minds. It’s like a distant call… what if there is a God?

-D

I doubt i will hear a reply from you, and if i do i will be much surprised and amused.

lol

 

[AnAtheist]

Darrel:

IWhat difference does that make to an Atheist? What is the reason that it’s wrong to harm others?

What harms others may harm you. I don’t want to be harmed by others, so a society should omit the harming.

There are Godless people all over the world who do harm to others and sleep well at night.

Quite right, and there are and always have been many godfearing people out there who harm others and sleep well at night. Like after burning a witch.

What is the basis of this moral in the teachings of Atheism?

Atheism has no teachings except “there are no gods”. For an atheist morals and their development are a question of biology, anthropology, and psychology, in other words there is a natural explanation. That does not mean, atheists follow different morals than Christians in every case.

 

[Tulkas]

Darrel:

I missed your edit,

Human instict is twords survival and not twords good and evil. You may want to consider the idea that this universe could not have created it’s self. Humanity would be lucky if it possesed even one percent of all knowledge in this universe.

This my friend, is approaching an entirely different issue which i will enter if you desire, are humans born evil and must be taught goodness, or vise versa. I would like to adress these other issues first if you will.

Darrel:

Atheist assume that they have all the answers Catholics profess to miracles, how do you explain the miraculous? An open mind beyond ego may help.

How completley wrong could you be! Atheists assume None of these things. It is absolutley absurd to tell me that atheists belive they have all the answers. We do not! We do not know for certain, but there is no evidence of god, just as there is no evidence of the pink invisible monkey sitting next to me. And from what we know, which i assure u is far less than 1% of all the knowledge, from what we know, assuming there is no existance of a higher power is the ONLY logical procession.

Darrel:

What difference does that make to an Atheist? What is the reason that it’s wrong to harm others? There are Godless people all over the world who do harm to others and sleep well at night. What is the basis of this moral in the teachings of Atheism?

There are catholics all over the world, who kill on friday, and confess on sunday, and do it all over again the next week. You cannot consider a person who has considered god, morality, and the such the same as one who has no sense of either.

Darrel:

Did you figure out right and wrong, or did you have it taught to you? Are you descended from a long line of Atheist’s? The United States is a primarily Christian country. It’s legal foundation ie constitution was written by a bunch of Christians. American values hinge on Church teachings. The more that changes the worse it gets here and everyone knows it.

OHHH How COMPLETLEY wrong you are on this one. The United States of America was NOT i must repeat this, was NOT founded by catholics, or christians. It was founded by Deists. For anyone out there who does not know, Deism is the belief that there is a god, a watchmaker to say, that created the world, set it in motion, and does not influence it thereafter. This is fact. The majority of our founding fathers were not catholic or Christian. But you are correct in your asseration that the U.S. is primarily a Christian country. Yet, this is only due to population numbers, and if you examine the world count, christianity falls short.

Darrel:

A Catholic/Christian has more self knowledge than the average person by far. God shows us his truth and the truth of ourselves. If you assume that being an Atheist is beyond religion in it’s superiority you are mistaken. Atheism is the un-religion that generaly allows people to custom tailor a lifestyle that easily justified without accountability. Is that strong or is it a cop out? All Atheist have that question looming in the backs of there minds. It’s like a distant call… what if there is a God?

Sounds a LOT like Pascals Wager to me. And let me explain this. I do not doubt u do not know, but for others, ill explain. Pascals Wager says: It is safe to believe in god, because if he does not exist, then nothing happens. But, if he does in fact exist, you are covered in your ‘wager’.

Do not use ‘what if there is a god’ as your argument, or i will use ‘what if there isn’t’ in mine. They are both absurd, you cannot explain the known with the unknown. It is a theological form of lunacy. Amazingly, this is what Christianity attempts to do. Or any organized religion for that matter.

-D

Darrel:

I doubt i will hear a reply from you, and if i do i will be much surprised and amused.

You think a stubborn atheist like myself is not going to contend? Perhaps you think it is witty to use my own words while stating your own…?

 

[Tulkas]

Darrel, i am sorry but it is almost 2:30 here and i have to get up in 4 hours, i will continue this debate, with pleasure tommorrow night. I’m sure i will have much more to say. As will you i hope.

 

[Darrel]

It amazes me how you say this, and yet, the few times i have been in a church, every time i have heard preach of hell, and eternal damnation. And i do not doubt you know of John Tetzel (SP?) , one of the most famous preachers of hell, damnation, and of course, indulgences. Perhaps the spark of the Reformation. I do not stereotype the entire christian religion, but i think it is hard not to deny that this fact of hell/damnation is drilled into young minds.

How ironic,

This happened to me in a southern fudamentalist type school in Florida that was just insane. I was a very young man at the time and this is what led me to Atheism. I was later shown by the Lord that I was blaming him for the damage done by men. If people hurt us in there preaching that doesnt mean that God hurt us it just means that people hurt us. God is not to blame for our deeds and should not be blamed.

I recently attended an art history class, and many of the artworks of post roman and mostly reformation times, were directly related to guilting, or creating fear in the viewers eyes to bring them back to christianity. I did not analyse this, i assure you. It is text in my history book, written by historians on the intent of the catholic church…Though, by no means do i rest my argument on this single source.

That may be true and it probably is. Plenty of mistakes have been made by the Church and it will admit them. I must again say that it is important to seperate God from men with regards to errors made by men. Christ did not teach us to be in a state of perpetual terror.

And by the way, your apology is very appreciated, while unnecessary. By no means do i take offense, and I am sightly impressed by your apology in fact. Perhaps respect is rarely afforded by from a catholic to one with my beliefs.

I’m not a Catholic yet but I will be. Not every Catholic will disrespect you. We obviously dont agree on Atheism but you must admit that the Church helps many people in this world. If you realy take the time to analize the affect of Christianity in the world up to it’s current state you will find that it practicaly proves God is real. No other human in all the billions throughout history has affected the world to the degree of Christ. One carpenter from 2000 years ago caused all of this? His teachings are literaly perfect as if they are not of this world.

Edit: Almost forgot, i feel no void in my life, by all we have i meant all WE(humanity, not atheists) have. I embrace mortality, and use it to live my life with full happiness. I belive this quotation is very significant to my belief on the matter::

Everyone worships something, it’s just a matter of figuring out what that something is going to be. Nobody is beyond needing religion ie: beliefs.

I do not intend to tiptoe through life only to arrive safely at death.

Same here, I would prefer to march in true strength.

-D

 

[Darrel]

AnAtheist:

Quite right, and there are and always have been many godfearing people out there who harm others and sleep well at night. Like after burning a witch.

Why do Atheist always count on ancient history to bash the Church? Can you list some current attrocity taking place at the hands of the Catholics? The whole world is guilty of attrocity, whats the point in dredging up past mistakes in the Church? Is it supposed to bother someone or something? I for one live in today.

-D