Heaven forbid Catholic universities be perceived as tolerant of other religious beliefs.Atheist Club at Catholic College? Do you agree with this policy? Why? Why not?
cardinalnewmansociety.org/CatholicEducationDaily/DetailsPage/tabid/102/ArticleID/4323/Atheist-Clubs-Don%E2%80%99t-Belong-at-Catholic-Colleges-Experts-Say.aspx
No, Notre Dame does not admit only Catholics. However, it wants to strengthen its Catholic identity and allow knowledge/debate/conversation of other religions that influence Catholicism. The students can have their beliefs, but using University money for a sanctioned club that does not advance the Catholic mission is poor use of their funds. There are plenty of other (secular) schools who would welcome such debate. I want my alma mater to strengthen the capital C in Catholic. That’s where my donations go!Of course they should be allowed to have this club.
Especially if a college accepts money, tuition and various support from non-Catholics and people of all beliefs.
If so, they can expect to have students of varied beliefs.
Notre Dame doesn’t only admit Catholics, right?
And Non-Catholic schools have Catholic clubs (and clubs for other faiths) all the time.
If a school is *only *for Catholic students and Catholic professors, that’s another story.
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According to the article:Of course they should be allowed to have this club.
Especially if a college accepts money, tuition and various support from non-Catholics and people of all beliefs.
If so, they can expect to have students of varied beliefs.
Notre Dame doesn’t only admit Catholics, right?
And Non-Catholic schools have Catholic clubs (and clubs for other faiths) all the time.
If a school is *only *for Catholic students and Catholic professors, that’s another story.
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I think this liberal American idea of “fairness” should not apply at all to private schools, and some discerning even at public schools would be welcome, but I want to focus on private schools here.Catholic colleges are not a case of special privileges, Horn noted. Private organizations would be expected to do the same. “A private university that promoted feminist ideals should not be expected to support clubs that fundamentally contradict those ideals,” for example, a club opposed to women’s suffrage, said Horn. Even “a private atheistic college would be justified in not permitting religious groups to use their funds or meeting spaces since their religious goals would be antithetical to the school’s atheistic ideologies.” - See more at: cardinalnewmansociety.org/CatholicEducationDaily/DetailsPage/tabid/102/ArticleID/4323/Atheist-Clubs-Don%E2%80%99t-Belong-at-Catholic-Colleges-Experts-Say.aspx#sthash.lVVOK1uo.dpuf
Well, if you really think that, then don’t be angry at our schools when they fire someone who signed a morality contract who decides to play house with their significant other, enter to a same-sex relationship, gets pregnant outside of wedlock and/or steals a car.If a school is only for Catholic students and Catholic professors, that’s another story.
Yes lets fire a woman who has a child out of wedlock because that’s the Cristian thing to do!Well, if you really think that, then don’t be angry at our schools when they fire someone who signed a morality contract who decides to play house with their significant other, enter to a same-sex relationship, gets pregnant outside of wedlock and/or steals a car.
So what should Notre Dame do about Young Democrats and College Republicans? Neither club can be said to “advance the Catholic mission.” Young Democrats are generally pro-choice, pro-ssm, while College Republicans often run afoul of Church teaching on social justice issues (the classic, “you want a child, but you don’t want to pay for it to go to school” argument comes to mind).No, Notre Dame does not admit only Catholics. However, it wants to strengthen its Catholic identity and allow knowledge/debate/conversation of other religions that influence Catholicism. The students can have their beliefs, but using University money for a sanctioned club that does not advance the Catholic mission is poor use of their funds. There are plenty of other (secular) schools who would welcome such debate. I want my alma mater to strengthen the capital C in Catholic. That’s where my donations go!
When I find out if such clubs exist, I will reply. Otherwise, I was speaking in generalities. However, I am not afraid to call and find out their positions.So what should Notre Dame do about Young Democrats and College Republicans? Neither club can be said to “advance the Catholic mission.” Young Democrats are generally pro-choice, pro-ssm, while College Republicans often run afoul of Church teaching on social justice issues (the classic, “you want a child, but you don’t want to pay for it to go to school” argument comes to mind).
Even if we accept those groups, do you allow Young Democrats to host a “Stand with Planned Parenthood” event this fall?
And what about those other religious groups on campus? I know the article talked about the “shared Abrahamic faith” for Jews, Muslims and Christians, but aren’t those three faiths at odds with one another? If the mission is to promote Catholicism, and we’re not authorizing student groups at odds with that mission, how do we justify groups for other faiths? Do we allow groups on campus that proselytize Catholics? Do the Mormons or the Jehovah’s Witnesses get invited?
You end up with a situation where you have to justify every decision, whether a group is approved or not. You are constantly answering the questions, “why this group and not us?” or, “why this event/speaker and not that one?”
It’s not that they have to approve every speaker. It’s the fact they have to JUSTIFY every approval or disapproval. Let’s say they allow a nursing students’ group to invite a well-known speaker to share her story of life in the profession. That’s a noble thing that should be allowed. But a quick look at her blog shows she’s blatantly anti-Catholic.When I find out if such clubs exist, I will reply. Otherwise, I was speaking in generalities. However, I am not afraid to call and find out their positions.
I get the sense you are really trying to trip me up because I said Notre Dame is trying to strengthen their Catholic mission. But as I said, there are other religions that foster dialogue among the students.
And yes, Notre Dame does end up having to approve every speaker and sanctioned group at school. What’s wrong with that?
This is why some Catholic colleges do not allow college funds to be applied to anything not Catholic. No college democrats, no college republicans, no official religion clubs for non-Catholics.It’s not that they have to approve every speaker. It’s the fact they have to JUSTIFY every approval or disapproval. Let’s say they allow a nursing students’ group to invite a well-known speaker to share her story of life in the profession. That’s a noble thing that should be allowed. But a quick look at her blog shows she’s blatantly anti-Catholic.
Now the Young Democrats want to invite one of their congressional representatives who also holds blatantly anti-Catholic views and they get denied. The Democrats have a right to know why their request wasn’t approved. But what does the school tell them? You can’t tell them they’re not allowed to have speakers at all, nor can you say it’s because of their speaker’s anti-Catholic views. So now the school is FORCED to allow the speaker.
As to the dialogue among students, how exactly does it promote the mission of a Catholic school? If the purpose of Catholic education is to educate students in the Catholic faith, then what good does allowing another religion do for that mission? The broader mission of the Catholic Church is to speak the truth. Unless we accept that truth is relative, that means that all other religious groups are not the truth. They may have elements of the truth, and that’s why dialogue is good because it can help us show them what they’re missing. But allowing them to organize as student groups means allowing them to work toward the same goal we have: for everyone to recognize their “truth” as being the whole truth about God and life.
Finally, while speaking in generalities is certainly acceptable, it becomes a problem when we realize the actual impact. For example, in general I love the idea of cutting our military budget. There’s no good reason for us to spend so much compared to the rest of the world, especially when so many of the top 30 military spenders are our allies. But where do you make those cuts? Do we close bases? You’ve just put non-military members out of work. Cut research and development? Many companies in the US depend on DOD contracts to keep themselves operational. More people out of work. Plus, if/when war does come, we aren’t as ready as we should be which means lives unnecessarily lost. Do we cut pay? Enlisted men and women are already on food stamps because their salaries can’t feed their family. On top of that, military retention numbers are down because after spending millions of dollars training someone, that individual can make 10x their current salary by moving to the private sector. Air traffic controllers, for example, can go from 24,000 per year enlisted base salary to 210,000 working the same job in the same place with a private military contractor. So while I like the idea of cutting our military spending in general, I currently disagree with it in practice until someone can show me a plan that doesn’t cause more problems than it solves.
In the same way, we can speak in generalities about different student groups being allowed campus resources. In general, you want Notre Dame to bolster it’s Catholic identity and make that capital “C” mean something. In practice, that would mean banning all non-Catholic religious groups from using university funds. Are you supportive of that?
Phil, I disagree with you on the priorities of a Catholic University. I’ve mostly been playing “devil’s advocate” because I cannot stand illogical or inconsistent arguments, which many have been producing.This is why some Catholic colleges do not allow college funds to be applied to anything not Catholic. No college democrats, no college republicans, no official religion clubs for non-Catholics.
I’ve seen that when it comes to non-Catholic students attending, I’ve seen some schools limit themselves to the following: listing the names of near by non-Catholic houses of worship on a campus ministry page, and that’s it.
The number 1 goal of a catholic university should be teaching the Catholic faith, goal #2 providing a safe Catholic Culture on campus and goal #3 providing a college education.
But the problem with many schools is that they have allowed goal #3 take precedence over 1 & 2
I agree that "free exchange of ideas is important in college. However, where I would respectfully disagree is how important it is.Phil, I disagree with you on the priorities of a Catholic University. I’ve mostly been playing “devil’s advocate” because I cannot stand illogical or inconsistent arguments, which many have been producing.
For me, I believe that ANY university exists first and foremost to facilitate and promote the free exchange of ideas. They should be places where all people can learn how to get along with people who have different ideas. A lesson like that in the real world has serious consequences (especially these days where you can lose your entire business for saying the wrong thing to someone with a Twitter feed).
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I do believe Catholic schools need to make the Catholic faith more of a priority. I would say priority 1a is the free exchange of ideas, but 1b is the Catholic faith. All of the ideas promoted in the free exchange of ideas should be matched with a Catholic understanding as well.*
The one caveat I would put to this is I would ban all students who did not complete a basic course in philosophical argumentation from participating in this exchange. Too many people using logical fallacies to win arguments. And when you call them out on rudeness or logical fallacies, they get offended. I have more than 30 emails today because I dared to tell people about NFP. People responded that I was being sexist and blaming women, and when I called them out on the way they responded they took even more offense at that. (insert facepalm here).
Wrong. Catholic education exists to get students to Heaven. By pursuing personal holiness and giving glory to God. No other goal comes close to this.Phil, I disagree with you on the priorities of a Catholic University. I’ve mostly been playing “devil’s advocate” because I cannot stand illogical or inconsistent arguments, which many have been producing.
For me, I believe that ANY university exists first and foremost to facilitate and promote the free exchange of ideas. They should be places where all people can learn how to get along with people who have different ideas. A lesson like that in the real world has serious consequences (especially these days where you can lose your entire business for saying the wrong thing to someone with a Twitter feed).
I do believe Catholic schools need to make the Catholic faith more of a priority. I would say priority 1a is the free exchange of ideas, but 1b is the Catholic faith. All of the ideas promoted in the free exchange of ideas should be matched with a Catholic understanding as well.
The one caveat I would put to this is I would ban all students who did not complete a basic course in philosophical argumentation from participating in this exchange. Too many people using logical fallacies to win arguments. And when you call them out on rudeness or logical fallacies, they get offended. I have more than 30 emails today because I dared to tell people about NFP. People responded that I was being sexist and blaming women, and when I called them out on the way they responded they took even more offense at that. (insert facepalm here).
The Purpose of Catholic Education and the Role of the StatePhil, I disagree with you on the priorities of a Catholic University. I’ve mostly been playing “devil’s advocate” because I cannot stand illogical or inconsistent arguments, which many have been producing.
For me, I believe that ANY university exists first and foremost to facilitate and promote the free exchange of ideas. They should be places where all people can learn how to get along with people who have different ideas. A lesson like that in the real world has serious consequences (especially these days where you can lose your entire business for saying the wrong thing to someone with a Twitter feed).
I do believe Catholic schools need to make the Catholic faith more of a priority. I would say priority 1a is the free exchange of ideas, but 1b is the Catholic faith. All of the ideas promoted in the free exchange of ideas should be matched with a Catholic understanding as well.
The one caveat I would put to this is I would ban all students who did not complete a basic course in philosophical argumentation from participating in this exchange. Too many people using logical fallacies to win arguments. And when you call them out on rudeness or logical fallacies, they get offended. I have more than 30 emails today because I dared to tell people about NFP. People responded that I was being sexist and blaming women, and when I called them out on the way they responded they took even more offense at that. (insert facepalm here).
Catholic educational institutions should have three goals in order to be able to fulfil their primary mission to allow students to “encounter the living God who in Jesus Christ reveals his transforming love and truth” (Pope Benedict XVI). These objectives are: to provide an environment in which students are enabled to build and deepen their relationship with God; to foster an academic culture aimed at the pursuit of truth; and to actively promote growth in virtue.
The Holy See’s Teaching On Catholic SchoolsWhen Christ is the center of all we do, then we are enabled to redirect our focus of life towards an understanding of the world in which we live that is geared towards the promotion of human dignity and the common good. Young men and women graduating from Catholic schools and universities should have the keen understanding of being called as Christians to work for the common good and to do so through a life that is deeply rooted in Christ, combined with a vigorous desire to pursue the truth of things, to live through and with reality rather than merely being guided by constantly changing feelings and preferences.
It is the clear teaching of the Church, constantly reiterated by the Holy See, that parents are the first educators of their children. Parents have the original, primary and inalienable right to educate them in conformity with the family’s moral and religious convictions. They are educators precisely because they are parents. At the same time, the vast majority of parents share their educational responsibilities with other individuals and/or institutions, primarily the school.
What role does the Church play in assisting Catholic families in education? By her very nature the Church has the right and the obligation to proclaim the Gospel to all nations (cf. Mt 28:20). In the words of Gravissimum Educationis:
USCCB: Catholic EducationTo fulfill the mandate she has received from her divine founder of proclaiming the mystery of salvation to all men and of restoring all things in Christ, Holy Mother the Church must be concerned with the whole of man’s life, even the secular part of it insofar as it has a bearing on his heavenly calling. Therefore, she has a role in the progress and development of education.
In a special way, the duty of educating is an ecclesial responsibility: “The Church is bound as a mother to give to these children of hers an education by which their whole life can be imbued with the spirit of Christ.” Note, however, that parents do not surrender their children to the Church but share a common undertaking.
We are deeply committed to supporting the proclamation of the Gospel through our primary and secondary Catholic Schools, Catholic higher education, campus ministry, certification for ecclesial ministry, and support of children and parents through advocacy and public policy in our Nation’s Capital.
We recall the statement made by the Second Vatican Council, “Holy Mother Church must be concerned with the whole of man’s life, even the secular part of it insofar as it has a bearing on his heavenly calling. Therefore she has a role in the progress and development of education.” (Gravissimum Educationis, Preface) Education remains critically important in the formation of the human person by teaching how to live well now so as to be able to live with God for all eternity.
Catholic education addresses the development of the whole person through spiritual and academic formation based on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The mission of Catholic education provides a particular environment for the New Evangelization by presenting the Gospel anew within the school and parish communities.
I think I see where our disagreement lies. I believe the free exchange of ideas is part of that education. I’m not even talking about research. I’m talking about a true, liberal arts education. Somewhere along the way, liberal arts became a catch-all for majors that didn’t fit into STEM or Education categories (and even a few that did) and for “general studies” programs that expose students to a variety of subjects (math, science, english, foreign language) which may not be directly related to their degree. While I certain see value in this modern form, it often comes at the expense of studying Plato, Aristotle, Socrates, Augustine and Aquinas. In other words, we’ve focused on teaching facts rather than teaching people how to think for themselves. This is where I believe universities of all types, secular and religious, are failing in the mission of a University.I agree that "free exchange of ideas is important in college. However, where I would respectfully disagree is how important it is.
I think for a Catholic college… the Catholic Faith needs to be priority #1. Period. And while I think a free exchange of ideas is important, I strongly feel that colleges should first have a priority to the education of their students.
I think there are too many examples of professors who prioritize their research over educating their students. They view their primary job as research and that they are teaching only to be allowed to continue their research. Granted, sometimes that actually might even jell with the University too, but I feel this is wrong.
If a university wants a professor due to his research & grants, that’s fine. They should adjust his teaching schedule so his research does not negatively impact his students. Also, a Catholic College should have boundaries on research and “free ideas” in that they must remain within the confines of Magisterium.
In my personal opinion, all Catholic colleges (and schools) Theology Departments should be subject to either the local Bishop or a some kind of Vatican accreditation program for Theology.
Don’t get me wrong, the free exchange of ideas and research at a University is very important; but in my humble opinion, should NOT take precedence over the Catholic Faith nor the commitment to the education of students.
God Bless!
Where in Pope Benedict XVI’s writings did he say that the “free exchange of ideas” must be a priority in Catholic education?So while I certainly think Catholic universities need to make a greater effort to promote the Church’s teachings, I also think they need to do it in a way that enables meaningful, respectful, thoughtful debate. The side benefit of this, of course, should actually be an increased understanding of Catholicism. In fact, people may discover there is, (insert Australian accent here) “real genius in Catholicism.” (end Matthew Kelley Australian accent).