Atheist satisfaction

[ColumnadeFuego]

I don’t know how I know that it is wrong, and I’m okay with that. I would assume it has to do with the fact that we are social animals and evolved that way. Anti-social behavior was probably bred out of our species for the most part. Look at other social animals such as wolves or apes. They also have certain sets of “rules” that they don’t generally violate. I’m sure they don’t know the reason why.

I honestly don’t give to much thought to why I have a sense of right or wrong. I highly doubt that without religion people would suddenly run around killing, raping, and stealing. I’m confident that you wouldn’t. Similarly, if heroin were legalized tomorrow I wouldn’t go out and buy some to try.

Can you point me to evolutionary proof that anti-social behaviour was probably bred out of our species? It would be interesting to see that, however, that wasn’t the point of my examples - the point was that humans can turn on themselves, surprisingly enough, much like animals. Earlier I mentioned the Ring of Gyges ( I think I did anyway). Put yourself if that situation. Can you honestly say that your morality would hold up? I can only give a hesitant yes, and I profess to be a Christian.

Wolves or apes cannot be moral creatures. Even though they live in packs and groups (or whatever the collective term for apes is) they cannot make moral decisions. For example, if there were two wolves literally starving and one of them had just caught food and the other had not, the first wolf would not share. I have seen this happen with my dogs, who are domesticated the last time I checked.

And assuming that you have a sense of right or wrong - how do you determine what is right and what is wrong?

Honestly this question is almost laughable. What do I get out of it? It helps me to enjoy my relationship with the world around me.

I also apologize as I’m not a great orator and don’t always get my thoughts out clearly.

What about the second question?

 

[SteveGC]

You seem pretty angry that I don’t believe in God…

No, I don’t offer a hypothesis, and I don’t really care why I am moral to be honest with you. I agree, maybe I shouldn’t claim that it evolved as I am not a scientist. Not all atheists are scientists, and not all Christians are theology experts.

That being said, it is somewhat insulting when others imply that without belief in god one can’t be a moral person.

I would never imply that one cannot be a moral person without belief in God. My contention would simply be that it is because of God that one is…irrespective of someone’s concession of God’s existence.

And no, in no way am I angry. The succession of questions I posed probably made it seem so. For that I apologize. For simplicity and time, I decided to ask the series of questions that, for me, were coherently inter-related and flowed sequentially out of rational thought. But no…they do not imply anger on my part. Far from it. I am genuinely interested (without emotion) in the atheistic vantage point. Admittedly, much of it is because I think there are flaws and contradictions in the atheistic position. However, I explore this merely from a position of logic and reasoning.

I will retract all those questions, but will ask just one: If you do not care about the origins of many of these unexplained concepts (such as empathy and other moral behaviors) which you admit do exist, do you find that that apathy contradicts your exploration into a website wherein it is highly discussed and debated? Please do not take that as an unwelcoming posture. I simply enjoy the discourse and desire to explore the atheistic thought processes.

Peace.

 

[freethinker83]

I would never imply that one cannot be a moral person without belief in God. My contention would simply be that it is because of God that one is…irrespective of someone’s concession of God’s existence.

And no, in no way am I angry. The succession of questions I posed probably made it seem so. For that I apologize. For simplicity and time, I decided to ask the series of questions that, for me, were coherently inter-related and flowed sequentially out of rational thought. But no…they do not imply anger on my part. Far from it. I am genuinely interested (without emotion) in the atheistic vantage point. Admittedly, much of it is because I think there are flaws and contradictions in the atheistic position. However, I explore this merely from a position of logic and reasoning.

I will retract all those questions, but will ask just one: If you do not care about the origins of many of these unexplained concepts (such as empathy and other moral behaviors) which you admit do exist, do you find that that apathy contradicts your exploration into a website wherein it is highly discussed and debated? Please do not take that as an unwelcoming posture. I simply enjoy the discourse and desire to explore the atheistic thought processes.

Peace.

No, I don’t think that apathy contradicts my exploration. Even though I don’t believe in it, various religions interest me because of the influence they have on the world.

Also, I don’t claim to represent anyone other than myself. Atheist really means not believing in a God and there are all kinds of beliefs and views among atheists.

No offense was taken from you. Peace to you as well.

 

[WesleyF]

A lack of interest in true inquiry is at the heart of atheist satisfaction. They don’t “know themselves”, as Delphi says and as Bl. Pope John Paul II reiterates in that encyclical; the poor creatures don’t even seem to want to know themselves. This tragedy is exactly why the divine liturgy of Good Friday asks God’s help in converting the atheists specifically.

Wow. Very aptly stated. This same mentality was reflected in Richard Dawkins’ foolish statement at a recent debate where he said that the “why” question is a silly question.

 

[Polak]

hunter123:

So the only reason for being good to people and doing the right thing is fear of God? I have heard that is the lowest level of spirituality. Thats sounds similar to a child who is good because he wants his gift from Santa. The Golden Rule improves life and society for everyone and regardless of your faith anyone can live by it.

I think it is more to do with the idea that an atheist believes they have only one life so why not do what you can to make it as good as possible for yourself, even if it means breaking a few laws, as long as it suits you. I think someone who does not believe in God can also have a sense of right and wrong and I know if I did not believe I would still feel bad if I did something that hurt someone else, but I also know, if to be totally honest, I might get more frustrated about the inbalance of this world as far as quality of life is concerned and perhaps do more to make sure I can provide myself with a better life, since I would believe I only had one shot. I just find it strange that a citizen obides by laws and does what he or she is told even if he or she does not believe in God. If you do believe in God you have faith that eventually the injustices that go on will be put right but if you do not, then you just accept that some are going to have a good time undeservedly and some are not and if you are on of those who does not, oh well, might as well still be honest and do what is right even if it gets me nowehere materially. I find it hard to make sense of that.

@freethinker83

I noticed that you do answer a lot of question by saying you don’t know, while this is better than making something up it is also proof that those who do not believe in God cannot prove it and also answer in the same way to a lot of questions about the universe. Why is it so many atheists seem so sure of themselves that there is no God but when you start to question how it is possible the universe got here and where the beginning was and how it begun, they just shrug but stand by the notion that whatever it was it could not be God. It is also frustrating so many atheists [not saying you are one of them though] feel the need to mock God. If you do not belive then why bother to mock it? I’ll tell you why they do it, they do it because they find it fun to mock people. Since they do not believe in God they do not believe they are mocking him they believe they are just mocking people who believe in him. I am not really a believer of aliens from outer space but I do not waste any of my time making fun of those who do believe in it, they can believe it if they want to, I do not, nothing else to talk about. It does not make me feel any better to make fun of them.

On a side note I remember once hearing an atheist use the argument that the idea of a God up there doing what he wants to do with the world like some sort of puppet master is slightly twisted. They went on to say they would much prefer there be no God. It made me think that they do not like the idea of a God being a ‘puppet master’ but they do not mind various leaders of the world and different mafias doing the same thing? Weird.

 

[Mark_David]

It’s like children who can have as much ice cream as they want. May make them happy in the meantime, but that doesn’t mean it’s good for them.

 

[Lieutenant_Kije]

Wow. Very aptly stated. This same mentality was reflected in Richard Dawkins’ foolish statement at a recent debate where he said that the “why” question is a silly question.

I have been up way too long to engage in significant/lengthy discussion here but I do think there is one thing you should consider re: the (un)satisfactoriness of atheist intellectual pursuits.

Saying that atheists as a whole lack an honest sense of inquiry and pointing to the pseudo-rationalists who have bedroom posters of Dawkins is about as accurate as a claim that theists as a whole lack a sense of intellectual rigor because they take as the only objective truth the KJV Bible on faith alone.

Point is: there are a wide variety of atheist intellectual systems. You are pointing at one of them and–rightly–arguing that it represents a limited intellectual engagement. That does not mean that all atheists lack a true spirit of inquiry.

Camus, as one example, wrote his thesis on the relationship between Neo-Platonism and Christian thought and also references Augustine extensively in his works.

 

[freethinker83]

@freethinker83

I noticed that you do answer a lot of question by saying you don’t know, while this is better than making something up it is also proof that those who do not believe in God cannot prove it and also answer in the same way to a lot of questions about the universe. Why is it so many atheists seem so sure of themselves that there is no God but when you start to question how it is possible the universe got here and where the beginning was and how it begun, they just shrug but stand by the notion that whatever it was it could not be God. It is also frustrating so many atheists [not saying you are one of them though] feel the need to mock God. If you do not belive then why bother to mock it? I’ll tell you why they do it, they do it because they find it fun to mock people. Since they do not believe in God they do not believe they are mocking him they believe they are just mocking people who believe in him. I am not really a believer of aliens from outer space but I do not waste any of my time making fun of those who do believe in it, they can believe it if they want to, I do not, nothing else to talk about. It does not make me feel any better to make fun of them.

On a side note I remember once hearing an atheist use the argument that the idea of a God up there doing what he wants to do with the world like some sort of puppet master is slightly twisted. They went on to say they would much prefer there be no God. It made me think that they do not like the idea of a God being a ‘puppet master’ but they do not mind various leaders of the world and different mafias doing the same thing? Weird.

My answer to you would be that in my mind, “I don’t know the reason” doesn’t equal “God”. I also never said that a god couldn’t have created the universe, I simply haven’t seen evidence that compels me to believe that is the case. I think scientists have a pretty good idea of what happened up to the point. I don’t know if we can ever know what happened before the big bang, and I’m okay with that. I would rather “not know” something than choose to believe something that (in my mind, no offense to you) has no solid evidence to back it up.

To answer your question about atheist satisfaction, I pose a question to you. Are you satisfied being a Catholic? I’m pretty sure that you are. If Catholic philosophy and the Catholic way of life works for you that is good. It simply doesn’t work for all of us. I am satisfied being an atheist only because I finally came to terms with who I am. For many years I simply clung to some belief in God and even prayed every night. I finally made myself face the truth and admitted to myself that I didn’t truly believe. Yes, I am satisfied that I am now honest with myself and others as to who I am.

 

[Bohm_Bawerk]

To answer your question about atheist satisfaction, I pose a question to you. Are you satisfied being a Catholic? I’m pretty sure that you are. If Catholic philosophy and the Catholic way of life works for you that is good. It simply doesn’t work for all of us. I am satisfied being an atheist only because I finally came to terms with who I am. For many years I simply clung to some belief in God and even prayed every night. I finally made myself face the truth and admitted to myself that I didn’t truly believe. Yes, I am satisfied that I am now honest with myself and others as to who I am.

 

[SteveGC]

Indeed.

I would rather “not know” something than choose to believe something that (in my mind, no offense to you) has no solid evidence to back it up.

And what if there were some forms of evidence? Much more evidence than you think?

There are atleast a dozen plausible and rational categories of evidence of an uncaused cause for the universe that, when honestly and openly scrutinized, allow for one to sincerely consider a faith-based response to it. If you’re interested in exploring that, let me know.

Peace.