Atheist view on CA

  • Thread starter Thread starter SGHumanist
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
S

SGHumanist

Guest
I was once a very devout Catholic who loved his church and attended mass and the sacrament on the average of 2 twice a week and daily during advent and lent. I am now an atheist.

I am retired and have time to delve into religion and philosophy and so I am wondering what Catholics are thinking now days.

Although atheist I am a firm believer in what I see as the philosophy of the gospels, love, care for the sick and poor, condemnation of excesses and particularly the accumulation of wealth, and refrain from judgment or condemnation.

I, perhaps erroneously, do not see these are major issues in today’s American Christianity or Catholicism. I have been following the debate of health care reform and with my position of care for the sick and poor I am aggressively in favor of helping the disadvantaged, regardless if the help comes from the private or public sector (or frankly how much in new taxes it might cost those to whom much has been given). I see abuses and corruption in government but the level of greed on the public sector is appalling.

So, I have turned to this forum to get an idea of just what Catholics are thinking. It has been a lesson. I could just have easily turned on fox news or Limbaugh. I have engaged in several issues and particularly health care reform. I was astounded, that although I addressed my issues in terms of gospel philosophy, I did not find a single individual in support of health care reform. I do not want to reargue the issue here but given the gospels stress of care for the sick (over 2 dozen references and mandates) I would have thought there would be some uncertainty or willingness to discuss both sides but I was unanimously attacked for my position. The hatred for the government and any who disagree was oppressive.

On another issue I came across a post from a non-catholic who was put-off by the aggressively “conservative” bent she also was finding in this forum.

So, I guess my question is, do these posters represent Catholic doctrine, is there that much hate, opposition to our government, condemnation of those who disagree in the church I once loved?

America is drowning in corporate and personal greed, self indulgence, obesity, prescription and illegal drug abuse, etc. I guess I still have a place in my heart for my old church and wonder where is the leadership our country needs? Hatred of the government or anything else will not solve our problem. Feeding the flames of division doesn’t help. We need leadership on the issues stressed in the gospels to bring America back together. I am sorry to say, do not find it on this forum.

I understand from responses to my previous posts that my position as an atheist may be considered to disqualify me from asking these questions, but I seem to remember when I was young the church had gotten over its aversion to discussing faith with the non-faithful.
 
It seems to me that you haven’t been around CA forums that long, how could you possibly paint with such a huge brush? I’m sure there are all kinds of positions Catholics take, for we have been given free will.
 
Well, with regard to healthcare reform, I think you’re making a wrong assumption. I haven’t met anyone, yet, who is against healthcare reform. I have met many, however, who are against the Democrats (Socialists) healthcare reform bill. To say anyone is against healthcare reform simply because they are against THIS healthcare reform bill is to assume that there is absolutely only one way to accomplish healthcare reform. And that would be incorrect. It would be like saying I don’t like wine if you gave me a glass of the finest wine with a spoonful of sewerage mixed in and I politely turned it down.

Anyway, with regard to Catholics in America, there’s are serious problems. Americans, in general, rarely make good Catholics. Why? Because they are too independent, and because they are surrounded by a Protestant culture, which has a tremendous negative influence on the formation of Catholics. What has been the fruit of these two issues? Well, about 70% of Catholics don’t even attend Mass on Sunday and Holy Days of Obligation. Most American Catholics also practice artificial birth control. Both qualify as “serious matter” when it comes to what makes a sin a mortal sin. The other 30% of American Catholics who do attend Mass regularly, etc., are usually seriously undercatechised to the point that they have, for the most part, about a second grade education in the faith. This picture is part of how you answer the question, “How could so many Catholics have voted for Obama in the last election?”

Add to that the educational system, which has been hijacked by folks influenced by the Enlightenment movement, which began about 300 years go. The Enlightenment was a movement whose goal was to create a society without God. It operated on three main premeses: 1) secularism - that there isn’t a God, or if there is, He doesn’t care. 2) relativism - that there is no objective truth. Truth is whatever you view it to be. and 3) individualism - each individual is his/her own final arbiter of truth, and has no responsibility to anyone else, except as he/she consents. This movement has resulted in, among other things, Marxism. They have taken over the classrooms, with their anti-God ideology, especially in the university sytems with regard to the humanities, with very few exceptions.

And all of this is just for starters. There’s lots more, but I’d never get to put it all into this medium, and I don’t want to sound so negative that you might assume there are no good Catholic in America. That’s far from the truth. It’s just that they’re in the minority among those who choose to label themselves as Catholic. 🙂
 
Isn’t this still a banned topic?

Unless by CA the OP means “Athiest view on California”. 😃
 
I think your points are legitimate. My own opposition comes, first, from a simple uniform application of the same charges you leveled against the private sector to the public. Greed is not the benefactor of the private sector alone, and to suggest it is so strikes me as either naive or disengenuous, and something of a red herring. I believe that original sin applies to businessman and to public officials equally, since they share the commonality of being born human. It is tempting to ennoble “service” (and often rightfully so) but one brief look at the history of the world reveals that those who act in the name of the “people” are often the very worst of any criminals we can imagine.

Second, my opposition flows from the change in the fundamental nature of the relationship between citizens and their government that universal healthcare entails. Dependence is fostered on a distant centralized authority, whether by degrees or in one fell swoop; but, like the analagous frog, whether we sense the heat or not the burner is inched ever higher.

Third, the Church’s teachings on subsidiarity preclude many of the justifications, and any true “social justice” requires that the principles of subsidiarism be paramount in our pursuits to ensure the actualization of social justice.

Finally, the bill would force everyone’s participation in federal-funding of abortion. Yes, I am aware that for months we’ve been told and reassured that the bill does not include these “loopholes”; but, the President’s own promise to sign an executive order that “fixes” the allegedly non-existant language puts to flight that obfuscatory spectre. In addition, whether he delivers the promised executive order to remove the previously non-existant language or not, one legal challenge from NARAL or NOW in a friendly federal court overturns it and restores the formerly non-existant federal-funding to extant certainty once again.

The right to life is prior to the right to healthcare, for the simple reason that one must first be alive in order to need healthcare at all. To reverse that order and enshrine it into civil code does violence to a culture that allegedly values life over death and enthrones a systemic prediliction that favors the strong over the weak (e.g., social darwinsim enshrined as the law of the land) and the “commonweal” over the “least of these” amongst us, which demolishes any justification attempting to use Jesus’ own words as rationale for its support.

All my best…
 
MarcoPolo said:
Isn’t this still a banned topic?

Unless by CA the OP means “Athiest view on California”. 😃
Click to expand...
I wouldn’t think the thread would be banned because it isn’t about “atheism,” per se. I think he is asking what Catholics think these days. That should be allowed, n’est pas? 🙂
 
SGHumanist,

You wrote concerning the CA discussion groups"I did not find a single individual in support of health care reform." That is a false & misleading assumption!
**
**You are confusing support of the Government takeover of health care, which a large majority US citizens, not just Catholics on this forum, are strongly against, with making affordable health care available to everyone, which almost everyone on CA & in the US would agree upon.
**
**No honest person believes that the government can run anything efficiently. If you really believe that this health care law will reduce the deficit, provide health care to 30 million more people, & cover every preexisting condition, etc, then you are surely naive.
**

Look at Government run Medicare & Medicaid, not everyone gets covered & the costs & fraud have skyrocketed astronomically, not been reduced over the years.

**We as Catholics surely believe in providing help to those in need.We believe we must find a way to make affordable health care available to everyone, but this health care law is a major step in the wrong direction!
**
Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, Ora Pro Nobis Peccatoribus!

mark**
 
Hello SGHumanist,
Let me take this point by point.

First, let me say something about my Catholic point of view.

One point that concerns me from a spiritual/faith perspective. If we are helping the sick and the poor with our taxes, are we actually doing what is asked of us by Jesus and His teachings? He asks us to help our neighbors out of love, not out of obligation. If the bill included an article that encouraged actually caring for our sick neighbors (e.g., tax cuts for those who volunteer at nursing homes), it would seem to reflect all the philosophies in the gospel. (Though someone may do it just for the tax cut, I think they would actually find themselves caring for those persons.)

Also, the Bill passed today because of the votes of the pro-life Democrats that were promised by the President that he would sign an executive order affirming no federal funding for abortion. I’m sure that many Catholics sighed in relief at hearing this, and may not be concerned any more. I know this was my main concern. (I’m sure abortion has its own thread so I’ll stop talking about it here 🙂 )

Let me say that if health care reform is so important, shouldn’t our politicians have taken time to come up with something good for the American people? This was rushed!

Also, from what you said,
my position of care for the sick and poor I am aggressively in favor of helping the disadvantaged
Click to expand...
As a Catholic, I pray for the same; however, (and I hope I am proved wrong) putting healthcare in the hands of the government may have a negative effect on the quality of the health profession. I base this assumption on a number of arguments.
If it can be said that the Healthcare Bill is leaning towards a universal healthcare system, similar to that in Canada, then let’s compare the hospitals up North to those in the USA (or at least those which I have visited in Montreal, CAN, and in Michigan, USA). In Canada, patients wait much longer to receive necessary procedures (e.g., transplants, surgeries) than in the US.
Also, because of a shortage in rooms/beds, for a patient with a certain condition, out-patient care might be recommended, whereas in the States a doctor would recommend a in-patient care for that same person. Not to mention, it isn’t rare for patients to be in the halls (since there wasn’t a room for them).
I also wonder how the bill will affect the cost of healthcare on individual bases. Hospitals and doctors must charge what they do to cover their expenses. Will this bill ultimately cause those costs to be lower? If so, I do not believe health professionals will be as engaged as they were, nor will future candidates to health care be as attracted to the profession. (Maybe this would only attract those who genuinely care about people’s health…that would be nice! But I don’t know if it would be enough…)

This is from ABC News abcnews.go.com/Politics/HealthCare/health-care-bill-obama-sign-bill-tuesday/story?id=10169801 ]:
“Starting this year, insurance companies would be barred from denying coverage to children because of pre-existing conditions. Effective when the bill is signed, they will also be prevented from placing lifetime caps on policies, or from dropping a patient’s insurance if he or she gets sick.”
I really love this, but will the companies be able to do this without bankrupting themselves?

Anyway, I hope I wasn’t too uninformed in my reply and if so, I’m not one to get offended by being corrected.
 
Sorry about the second post, but I stumbled on some information that was pertinent.

nrlc.org/AHC/Release032110.html

The above link is a response to President Obama’s promise to sign an executive order banning federal funding of abortion by the National Right to Life Committee.

Basically, it says that the executive order is just a tactic to get the bill through and may be overruled. Bottom line: the abortion funding may become reinstated.

As a Catholic, I cannot support abortion as it is a violation of the fifth commandment.
I really hope that Obama’s executive order is upheld.
 
Not about health care…

I think if you’re looking for a default Catholic mind set, you should start with the Catechism. It has a few (cough) debatable spots, and people will cherry-pick sections just like they can do with the Bible, but, if you make a good faith study of the whole enchillada, with a Bible handy, you’ll probably get as close to a foundational set of Catholic beliefs as one can.

On the other hand, “Here comes everybody.” :slapfight:
 
Hello SGHumanist,
Seems like a few pick up on the health insurance legislation since it is such a hot topic today. As for me, it seems like many congressional bills combine too many things in it most of which are amendments or ryders so it will pass. What this does is pass legislation that had good and bad things in it. The pros will pick on their issues and the cons will pick theirs. Some are one issue people like anti-abortionists that dislike the whole thing because of the inclusion of the issue.

We on the forums hopefully pursue union with Christ through His revelation He has given us. Our faith spurs us on to the hope we have in the promises God has given us from the beginning of time through the present. We as Christians believe that God has made Himself present to us by becoming one of us and continually gives His life to us by His Grace through the sacraments. This Grace is what gives us the ability to perform acts of charity whereby we do things because of Christ and not to get a tax deduction.

We have a fallen nature and because of this we fail many times to adhere to the faith we proclaim. We say things we shouldn’t and do things that are wrong. Hopefully as we grow in holiness we come to an understanding of our behaviors and how they can negatively impact others and try to amend or ways and seek forgiveness.

Many of the posts here can help in our pursuit of knowledge that can effect our behaviors and give a clearer understanding of our relationship with God, especially through His Church He established.

Hope this helps.

mdcpensive1
 
SGHumanist said:
America is drowning in corporate and personal greed, self indulgence, obesity, prescription and illegal drug abuse, etc. I guess I still have a place in my heart for my old church and wonder where is the leadership our country needs? Hatred of the government or anything else will not solve our problem. Feeding the flames of division doesn’t help. We need leadership on the issues stressed in the gospels to bring America back together. I am sorry to say, do not find it on this forum.

I understand from responses to my previous posts that my position as an atheist may be considered to disqualify me from asking these questions, but I seem to remember when I was young the church had gotten over its aversion to discussing faith with the non-faithful.
Click to expand...
Don’t just look at America. Look at the whole dang world.

We obviously live in a screwed-up world (too bad I can’t use the “F” word because that would better describe it) where folks believe in something called “God” “Who” doesn’t care about you or me or the world or anything in it.

Because if he DID care, at least this world wouldn’t be as screwed up as it already is.

Why are you saying we need the gospels to bring America back? I thought you were an atheist, no?
 
Chanel said:
Don’t just look at America. Look at the whole dang world.

We obviously live in a screwed-up world (too bad I can’t use the “F” word because that would better describe it) where folks believe in something called “God” “Who” doesn’t care about you or me or the world or anything in it.

Because if he DID care, at least this world wouldn’t be as screwed up as it already is.

Why are you saying we need the gospels to bring America back? I thought you were an atheist, no?
Click to expand...
Chanel, just because the world is screwed up a lot doesn’t mean He doesn’t care. He cares for us but loves us enough to allow us to make our own decisions which always are not the right ones. The highest form of love is to allow someone to leave if so chosen. Forcing us to love him or even others is a form of slavery.

mdcpensive1
 
mdcpensive1 said:
Chanel, just because the world is screwed up a lot doesn’t mean He doesn’t care. He cares for us but loves us enough to allow us to make our own decisions which always are not the right ones. The highest form of love is to allow someone to leave if so chosen. Forcing us to love him or even others is a form of slavery.

mdcpensive1
Click to expand...
Well, if he does exist, I believe that he could’ve AT LEAST given us a more evolved-mature-advanced brain!

On the other hand, if one doesn’t love God, then that person gets sent to Hell, now, I find that pretty sick. THAT right there says that God’s mercy is LIMITED!
 
Chanel said:
Well, if he does exist, I believe that he could’ve AT LEAST given us a more evolved-mature-advanced brain!

On the other hand, if one doesn’t love God, then that person gets sent to Hell, now, I find that pretty sick. THAT right there says that God’s mercy is LIMITED!
Click to expand...
Interesting way you put it in that it seems you want discussion.

As far as the advanced brain goes, we’ll see how the new healthcare bill does for it.

If one does not love God then it is a personal choice to be away from Him.

mdcpensive1
 
Chanel said:
Don’t just look at America. Look at the whole dang world.

Why are you saying we need the gospels to bring America back? I thought you were an atheist, no?
Click to expand...
I do not see why my being an atheist restricts me from admiring the philosophy found in the gospels???

But the reason I am saying we need the gospels is that 80% of Americans are Christians. A significant number believe that belief is the only thing a person needs to be considered moral, one is not required to follow any other part of the gospels (good works etc.). Many more have a variety of other beliefs that distract from the major concepts stressed in the gospels. If I would say humanists need to adhere to the concepts in the Humanist Manifesto, I would be addressing 3% of the population. If every one of them fervently followed their doctrine, its impact on America would be negligible.

Americans are Christian, with that comes the responsibility, not only to live Christian lives but to take a leadership role in the resolution of America’s problems. I believe the principles of the gospels can be productive here.

Now, how does my concept of implementing the gospels apply in daily life? If we must use health care, I believe every single American should have access to adequate care (and I do not consider emergence room service as adequate). I believe we do not currently have that situation. I believe it is great for the private sector to accomplish this goal, but I also believe the goal is so significant that if the private sector cannot do the job, the government must, not because it can do a better job, but because the goal must be reached. Finally if the poor cannot afford care the wealthy should kick in (as the wealthiest nation on earth we can afford it). I believe this policy is consistent with several of the most prominent of gospel concepts.

Next, let’s use greed; there were several comments on my mention of this issue. The gospels are perfectly clear. Do not accumulate treasure, god will provide, the rich man has little chance for salvation, if you would be perfect sell all you have and give it to the poor.

I say these social principles of the gospel are most significant; love of everyone (no judgment or, condemnation), care for the sick and poor, rich have a great responsibility not for themselves but to the above (by the way, I am not poor and have never needed nor received any form of assistance). Unfortunately, I believe far too many folks on this forum will brand me as a socialist for believing these principles.

As I said, I do not intend to reargue health care reform but will reiterate my view on a couple of responses. We cannot solve America’s problem with a hate campaign against anyone including the US Government. Our system of government is among the best in history. Calling names like democrats are socialists or the government cannot do anything right is inaccurate and accomplishes nothing (we have the best military in history, we have the best military medicine program (completely ran by the government) we have the best public university system in the world, the best space program, and many excellent first responders (all government programs)).
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top