Atheists At Catholic Forums

[axolotl]

Atreyu:

ITherefore, if Jesus really was God, and He started a Church, there are only two (well, three) candidates left: the Roman Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church or the Oriental Orthodox Church.

Hey! You forgot the Assyrian Church of the East! They’re really old, too. (They walked out of the Council of Ephesus in 431, 20 years before the Oriental Orthodox walked out at the Council of Chalcedon)

 

[Savonarola]

Atreyu:

Yeah this is a good example, but what about the child who knows that something is wrong, yet he does it anyway? Would you punish this child; even if it is only to make the child look at himself and make him see that it is wrong?

The only reason a child knows something is “wrong” is because he or she was taught that it was wrong.

What does it really mean for something to be “wrong”? I have friends who were taught that it was “wrong” to speak inside the house. The definition is culturally and individually defined and usually has something to do with a parent figure not liking it. There is no global definition of it. Even within organized belief systems (i.e., religion), people’s definitions vary quite a bit.

Here is a quote from Shakespeare’s Hamlet:

“…there is nothing either good or bad but thinking makes it so.”

In other words, there is no such thing as good or bad but if you think it is good or bad then, to you, it is.

As for punishment, if you believe in punishment then by all means punish your children and others that you love in your life. Personally, I have found punishment to be a destructive and ineffective means of communication.

 

[Gilbert_Keith]

SAVONAROLA

As for punishment, if you believe in punishment then by all means punish your children and others that you love in your life. Personally, I have found punishment to be a destructive and ineffective means of communication.

Sometimes it is … and especially when it is done vindictively and with extreme consequences.

But I think there is such a thing as tough love, and I believe many parents end up with uncontrollable children because they have never taught them that actions have consequences. Such parents often act from complex motives; they are afraid of wounding their children; they are afraid of losing their child’s affection; or they are just plain afraid of their child.

But the rule of law must not be defied with impunity. How else do children learn their limits? You might say you can reason with them rather than punish them. Reason only works up to a point, and in some cases has little or no effect. So how do you communicate when reason is useless?

 

[Savonarola]

cheddarsox:

Savonarola,
I understand what you are saying here, and spiritually, I agree for the most part, but have one question. Because humans are not only spiritual, but physical as well, does any of this apply to the biological application of fear as well?

There is a practical level at which fear is useful because it helps us stay alive.

I am curious how others here perceive the link between physical and spiritual.

Thanks,

cheddar

Cheddar, I am speaking of the psychological (spiritual, if you wish) fear that can be so disabling and blocking. However, even physical fears can be counter-productive. For example, the physical fear of a lion attacking seems useful but can also be paralyzing. Fears tend to manifest themselves as some level of panic.

What is most useful is the simple knowledge that when a lion attacks you run as fast as you can to shelter. Without this knowledge the fear is of little use.

It’s like being in a crowded movie theather. If there is a fire the safest thing to do is for everyone to remain calm and empty the building as quickly as possible (which takes some organization). The worst thing is for everyone to panic at any level.

With that said I do see a benefit to the existence of physical fear as a starting point. Without any other knowledge you will recognize potential danger. That recognition can spur you on to figure out what to do in case it arises. Once this knowledge is learned I think the physical fear only gets in the way. The adrenaline rush and other physical responses to an actual attack are very useful but the fear can be disabling.

 

[Gilbert_Keith]

And by the way, if you want to pursue this topic, shouldn’t you be starting another thread?

 

[Savonarola]

Neithan:

If you desire an ice cream cone but are not afraid of *not *having it (i.e. you would not be disappointed without it) then isn’t that just a matter of degree? You don’t really fear not having it because you don’t *really strongly *desire it? Many of us strongly desire money, and isn’t there always an associated fear whenever there is a *strong *desire?

If you strongly love your spouse, don’t you fear causing them pain?

…isn’t fear present in love as a negative motivator? Do you agree that acting out of love is often reinforced by fearing what might be called acts of hate?

Sure, not all mistakes detract from our perfection… but doesn’t the very fact that we make them imply that we are not yet perfect? Even admitting that we do not know who we truly are–isn’t that a sign of imperfection?
Would you agree that our goal in life is to *become *perfect? Is it possible to fail?

Neithan, the answer to all of these questions is simply No. These are truly excellent questions but fear is not related to desire although is is often confused with it or it’s opposite. God does not condemn us althogh we are taught he does. We are perfect just the way we are although we are taught we are not. I know these may not be the most obvious answers to these questions but I have found them to be the truest.

Neithan:

Why do any of us need to learn anything if we are perfect? I think perhaps I don’t understand your definition of ‘perfect.’

I also think you don’t understand the definition of the self that is perfect. I think you are confusing your self with your understandings.

Neithan:

About that last sentence–are you saying that punishment has no beneficial effects? Should a parent simply allow their child to grow and learn without any ‘correction’ at all? Do you think a child without parental guidance (a teacher to discern right from wrong) would be happier than others?

Guidance can be very useful. Punishment is a form of guidance but certainly not the only form.

Neithan:

I’m curious about how your total lack of distinction between good and evil action plays out: are you against the justice system entirely? Do you agree with the existence of police officers, prisons, courts, lawyers, judges etc. In short–do you agree with the idea of “law” in any sense whatsoever?

For a society that believes that man is basically sinful or bad at his core I think the justice system is just what the doctor ordered. I wouldn’t change a thing.

Neithan:

How do you view hate in relation to love and fear? If fear is the only evil, is hatred a good thing, too?

Hatred is actually the flip side of love. It is an attempt to reconnect to something that is loved by trying to get rid of the thing you feel is in the way. Hatred is not a “bad” thing nor is fear. They may not serve you well but that doesn’t make them “bad”.

 

[Savonarola]

Gilbert Keith:

SAVONAROLA

As for punishment, if you believe in punishment then by all means punish your children and others that you love in your life. Personally, I have found punishment to be a destructive and ineffective means of communication.

Sometimes it is … and especially when it is done vindictively and with extreme consequences.

But I think there is such a thing as tough love, and I believe many parents end up with uncontrollable children because they have never taught them that actions have consequences. Such parents often act from complex motives; they are afraid of wounding their children; they are afraid of losing their child’s affection; or they are just plain afraid of their child.

But the rule of law must not be defied with impunity. How else do children learn their limits? You might say you can reason with them rather than punish them. Reason only works up to a point, and in some cases has little or no effect. So how do you communicate when reason is useless?

Gilbert, you make some excellent points and I agree with much of what you are saying. I know parents that have just the fears you describe and as a result they have no control over their household. There are also parents who punish out of fear and vindication as you alluded to. Both of these scenarios bring problems and it is the acting out of fear and anger that is at the root of the problems.

Of course reasoning does have its limitations especially when emotions are involved. I am not saying punishment should never be used or that it is bad. For some people in some situations it is the best thing they have. However, what is often required is firmness, not punishment. Meaning what you say, holding firm to it, and following through every time. As you said, for many people this brings up the fear of how the child will react to such a thing. Also, rewarding desired behavior has been shown to be very effective.
Gilbert Keith:

And by the way, if you want to pursue this topic, shouldn’t you be starting another thread?

I don’t know. I’m pretty new to the forum thing. Are there guidelines for that?

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

AnAtheist:

Hi, the term “atheist” simply denotes a person *not *believing in God or in gods to be precise. Also most atheists deny the existence of any supernatural phenomena. Apart from that, atheists have no common attitude, philosophy or political agenda. Though most atheists probably want a strict separation of state and religion.

Or disbelieving in gods commonly worshipped by society at large. Christians were accused of atheism by their pagan critics. So was Socrates - and a number of others who could not be regarded as without belief in a divine being (or beings).​

Not forgetting the “practical atheism” of the nominal believer whose professed creed has no effect upon how he lives.

Atheist has half a dozen different meanings ##