Attended my 1st Orthodox Vespers today. Holy.

[Indifferently]

A member of the Church of England attempting to claim authority to determine where Rome has erred is supremely ironic.

The Church of England’s hierarchy has certainly erred. But that is not an argument that the Church of Rome has not (though this is the standard argument - ‘but… but… you have women priests! Therefore my religion is correct!’) I am a member of the remnant part of the Church of England which maintains the true faith and doctrinal orthodoxy (it does exist). Anyone familiar with God’s consternation towards Israel at several times during the Old Testament knows how many real Anglicans feel about all this.

 

[Shamati]

The first seven ecumenical councils are definitive documents of the Christian faith. The problem with the Church of Rome is that it has to contend with all the other ones that various Popes have convened over the years, which have caused it to err on a number of serious matters. The Eastern churches don’t really have this problem, but they do have problems of their own too. The sort of scholastic, medievalist theology that Rome adopted in the Middle Ages is haunting them gravely, but Vatican II was a very brave step towards moving back to the orthodox Faith of the Fathers and Apostles (even if liberals did try to hijack it for their ends, but Pope Benedict has put a stop to that). I pray that the next Pope will continue in this direction.

I wholeheartedly agree!
We cannot say a church that keeps the faith of the ecumenical concels is heretic.

 

[dzheremi]

If you know that you must be in a Church with true sacrifice that is in communion with Peter, then you MUST join the Catholic Church or you cannot be saved.

From the Orthodox perspective Shamati is likely to encounter, the second clause does not at all follow from the first. Rome is by no means the only Petrine See, and the Orthodox do not believe that the Pope of Rome is the sole successor to St. Peter, so either family of churches calling themselves Orthodox are in communion with St. Peter via their respective Antiochian Patriarchates – HH Ignatius Zakka I Iwas of the Syriac Orthodox Church for the Oriental Orthodox and John X (Yazigi) of Antioch for the Eastern Orthodox.

 

[Shamati]

If I have to choose between joining a church whit the “right” governing of the earthly organisation and a church that has kept the worship, faith and spirituality pretty much intact I guess I my conscience will tell me to choose the latter as I believe it would be better for my soul.

 

[Cavaradossi]

A member of the Church of England attempting to claim authority to determine where Rome has erred is supremely ironic.

Indifferently’s religious affiliation has nothing to do with whether what he/she argues is true. Ironic though you may find it, it had no impact on the veracity of Indifferently’s claim.

 

[aemcpa]

Indifferently’s religious affiliation has nothing to do with whether what he/she argues is true. Ironic though you may find it, it had no impact on the veracity of Indifferently’s claim.

I only called it ironic. I did not comment thereby on the veracity or falsity of her claim.

For the record, her claim is clearly false.

 

[Cavaradossi]

I only called it ironic. I did not comment thereby on the veracity or falsity of her claim.

For the record, her claim is clearly false.

In your opinion, yes. Whether that is so clear to others remains to be demonstrated.

 

[aemcpa]

In your opinion, yes. Whether that is so clear to others remains to be demonstrated.

Opinions do not matter. Either the successor of Peter has the authority he claims to have, or that authority is lacking in the Church. In the former case, her claim is false; in the latter, Our Lord is a liar.

 

[Cavaradossi]

Opinions do not matter. Either the successor of Peter has the authority he claims to have, or that authority is lacking in the Church. In the former case, her claim is false; in the latter, Our Lord is a liar.

That argument is based on two false dichotomies. The first is that it is impossible for the papacy not to possess the authority which it claims to have but for the Church to possess this authority by other means (in order for this dichotomy to be valid, it would have to be proved first that the Roman Catholic Church is the Church to the exclusion of all other bodies which make the same claim, and also to the exclusion of ecclesiological theories like Conciliarism, such that using this dichotomy as a proof for the Roman Catholic Church being the Church falls into circular reasoning).

The second false dichotomy is, that if the claims of the papacy were shown to be false, that would not automatically lead to the logical conclusion that the Lord lied. The Dominical words to Peter in Matthew 16:18 in fact make no mention of Peter’s successors, much less a sole successor located in the City of Rome.

 

[dzheremi]

The Pope of Rome is not the exclusive successor of St. Peter, and no other successor (in Antioch, or even historically in Rome) claims what the modern Roman Catholic Church claims for its Patriarch, so far from making our Lord a liar, it seems that the unquestioned assumption that St. Peter = the Pope of Rome in perpetuity throughout the universe is what is rejected by the Orthodox. We do quite fine without Rome’s infallible oversight, as we have for 2000 years and counting. I would think that Catholics who really want to engage the Orthodox on the points over which we differ would be better off asking why that is than simply asserting their foreign ecclesiology over people who have their own way of running things that has proven to be astoundingly flexible and resilient in ways that Rome could learn from.

 

[Kosta]

I used to practiced Yoga and eastern meditation in which I activate what is usually called “The third Eye” which is located in the middle of but slightly above the eyebrows. Since i did this I can physically feel a tingling when I get in a spiritual mindset etc.

Anyway, i since turned to christianity but have in my discerning of catholicism noticed some important differences in lithurgy and theology with the orthodox where i sympatize more often with the orthodox more non dogmatic view. I want to be in communion with the successor of Peter but we have bo eastern catholics in Sweden and even more orthodox than catholics and the local catholic church only celebrate a mass that very much resembles the lutheran mass. So i decided to visit a orthodox vespers service and when the priest started to sing/chant in a language i dont even understand i nonetheless was filled with a sense of awe before the immense holiness of this worship. When the Inscense was being swinged at us accompanied by blessings the spot for the third Eye started to tingle for the first time during a. Church worship (usually happens during meditations and such) and I really felt that there is actually something here that is very Holy Holy Holy, as if the Angels of God were present at the Altar and I didnt understand a word of the slavonic language!
I’m gonna visit the Divine lithurgy this Sunday too.

I realise not many will be able to identify with the third Eye babble but has anyone Else been struck by the holiness and reverance of orthodox worship???

Just wanted to share with you the first time i experienced this kind of spirituality in any church worship service I visited thus far. I think I might need to visit the very games latin mass before i male up my mind

Bless you all & plz pray for me that i may find not mine, bit His way and be willing to walk it.

It sounds vaguely to me like you’re describing the Nous. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nous#Eastern_Orthodox

 

[Indifferently]

I only called it ironic. I did not comment thereby on the veracity or falsity of her claim.

For the record, her claim is clearly false.

Clearly false? If it was so terribly clear, then how come it was not clear to four out of the five patriarchs at the Great Schism? It clearly wasn’t all that clear then, wasn’t all that clear in the Bible where there is no reliable statement that Peter’s direct successors at one see (which just so coincidentally happened to be the seat of the Roman Empire) would have universal jurisdiction over the entire Church of God, including the privilege of making infallible declarations on dogma.

None of that is terribly clear. What is clear, however, is that Jesus gave the commission to his Apostles as a whole, a belief which was held throughout the early church and through the seven ecumenical councils preceding the Great Schism. There are popes who have asserted the same, and the belief was also foreign to the Fathers.

Boniface VIII’s worldly bull Unam Sanctam is about as far removed from the Gospel of Christ as can be.

Not to mention of course that St Peter was also Bishop of Antioch before he went to Rome. Funnily enough the Patriarchate of Antioch never claimed monarchical totalitarian rule over the whole of Christendom.

 

[Shiranui117]

Thank you very much, I’d really like that.

Sure thing Do you mind if I teach you over PM?

EDIT: Also, do you know how to read Cyrillic?

Unfortunately I missed the sunday lithurgy But I am definitely gonna keep going there!! It was by far the best public worship service I have ever witnessed in person!

Ahh, alright. I’m glad you’ve had a positive experience so far, though!

I like to analyze what kind of feelings and thoughts are being evoked by participation in mass and for this I could notice a feeling of “awe” and when the incense was being swinged over me I was thinking “Lord, have mercy, for I am not worthy of such blessings and beauty”.

I will definitely inspire me to strive for being able to clean my inside so that I may offer a clean sacrifice!

This I have never felt so strongly

I wish I was inspired as strongly as you; that’s a real blessing from the Lord

 

[ComeHome2Rome]

I’m gonna visit the Divine lithurgy this Sunday too.

I realise not many will be able to identify with the third Eye babble but has anyone Else been struck by the holiness and reverance of orthodox worship???

I’m not one who can identify with the third eye talk, but yes I have been struck by the holiness & reverence in Orthodox Christian worship.Our family is now Orthodox.

In the 900s when the king of Russia sent men to each major monotheistic religion of the world, the men who went to Agia Sophia & witnessed Orthodox worship reported to him, “We knew not if we were in heaven or on earth”. As you already know, the king embraced Orthodox Christianity as the official religion of his country.

It’s interesting that you will also visit a Latin Mass as that king had also sent men to Rome to observe their worship, which at the time, was only in Latin.

I am interested to here your experiences of the Divine Liturgy & also the Latin Mass.

 

[ComeHome2Rome]

I’m gonna visit the Divine lithurgy this Sunday too.

I realise not many will be able to identify with the third Eye babble but has anyone Else been struck by the holiness and reverance of orthodox worship???

I’m not one who can identify with the third eye talk, but yes I have been struck by the holiness & reverence in Orthodox Christian worship.Our family is now Orthodox.

In the 900s when the king of Russia sent men to each major monotheistic religion of the world, the men who went to Agia Sophia & witnessed Orthodox worship reported to him, “We knew not if we were in heaven or on earth”. As you already know, the king embraced Orthodox Christianity as the official religion of his country.

It’s interesting that you will also visit a Latin Mass as that king had also sent men to Rome to observe their worship, which at the time, was only in Latin.

I am interested to here your experiences of the Divine Liturgy & also the Latin Mass.

 

[Shamati]

Sure thing Do you mind if I teach you over PM?

EDIT: Also, do you know how to read Cyrillic?

Ahh, alright. I’m glad you’ve had a positive experience so far, though!

I wish I was inspired as strongly as you; that’s a real blessing from the Lord

No i do not know how to read cyrillic. Which is why it seems a monumental task. Would you say that knowing cyrillic would make it easier to later learn greek? (If you know or heard about it) wasnt St Cyril and St Methodius greek missionaries?

The development in recent months has made it harder and more of a struggle for wvery aspect of life for me because I have become so much more aware of my “inner life” but have not yet acquired the full knowledge of which techniques to best use to keep it completely clean from any anger, resentment or evil. I am not sad about this but I rejoice in the fact that it seems to bother a part of me by simply having an ungodly inclination within me.

Maybe what is called the Third Eye in western hermetic mysticism and yogic/buddhist/taoist philosophy is the very same thing or part of the “Nous” of the blessed Christian fathers?

The kind of “awe” I felt was unlike any kind of spiritual sensation i had yet felt before because it instilled a deep sense of respect before the unseen and unfathomable Majesty of God within me. I knew this path will be harder but also that it has the potential to be able to take me to the limits of my capabilities because it demands a sense of humility and abandonment of all demands (poverty in spirit) that has been unknown to me for my entire life and which i havent encountered anywhere before. My spontaneous thought right afterwards was: “now I know what the common Jew felt like at his first visit to the Temple of Solomon during public worship rituals”. This kind reverance and spirituality is what is missing in the west. If it was there I dont think we’d see much apostasy or militant atheism at all. “How we pray is how we believe” i believe a latin saying goes.

I will try to get to the latin mass (which will require traintravel) but now when I have let it sunk in for a couple of days, i have a hard time imagining a way in which anyone can give more Glory to Christ & the most Holy Trinity during public worship than in such simple yet majestic beauty. It was truly food for my soul, and it hungers for more.

 

[Shiranui117]

No i do not know how to read cyrillic. Which is why it seems a monumental task.

Ahh, alright. Once you know how to read the words that you’re hearing in Vespers and at Liturgy, chanting along and remembering it all will be much easier

Would you say that knowing cyrillic would make it easier to later learn greek?

It makes it easier to read Greek, yeah. There are some Greek letters you’ll have to learn, though.

(If you know or heard about it) wasnt St Cyril and St Methodius greek missionaries?

Yes, they’re very well-known and beloved Saints in the Slavic traditions

The development in recent months has made it harder and more of a struggle for wvery aspect of life for me because I have become so much more aware of my “inner life” but have not yet acquired the full knowledge of which techniques to best use to keep it completely clean from any anger, resentment or evil. I am not sad about this but I rejoice in the fact that it seems to bother a part of me by simply having an ungodly inclination within me.

The fact that you are keenly aware of all this and still not despairing is remarkable; I’ve seen many people who break under a sense of guilt about it.

Maybe what is called the Third Eye in western hermetic mysticism and yogic/buddhist/taoist philosophy is the very same thing or part of the “Nous” of the blessed Christian fathers?

I’m not educated enough to say, but perhaps there are some commonalities. I’d have to do some research; my understanding of the Nous is that it is the perspective, intellectual part of the soul.

The kind of “awe” I felt was unlike any kind of spiritual sensation i had yet felt before because it instilled a deep sense of respect before the unseen and unfathomable Majesty of God within me. I knew this path will be harder but also that it has the potential to be able to take me to the limits of my capabilities because it demands a sense of humility and abandonment of all demands (poverty in spirit) that has been unknown to me for my entire life and which i havent encountered anywhere before. My spontaneous thought right afterwards was: “now I know what the common Jew felt like at his first visit to the Temple of Solomon during public worship rituals”. This kind reverance and spirituality is what is missing in the west. If it was there I dont think we’d see much apostasy or militant atheism at all. “How we pray is how we believe” i believe a latin saying goes.

I will try to get to the latin mass (which will require traintravel) but now when I have let it sunk in for a couple of days, i have a hard time imagining a way in which anyone can give more Glory to Christ & the most Holy Trinity during public worship than in such simple yet majestic beauty. It was truly food for my soul, and it hungers for more.

JSYK, the saying goes “Lex orandi, lex credendi.”

Also, someone else on this thread has brought to mind the Russian envoys’ experience of Orthodox Christianity in Constantinople. I can’t help but agree with the connection.