Augustine help

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eleusis

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Does anyone have any quotes handy by St. Augustine which show that he supported the Holy Church as a teaching organ and safe-guard of the faith? A coworker brought out a text book he is using in his graduate work that was apparently out of context and is being pushed forward as a “proof” of Augustine’s belief in Sola Scriptura.

Thank you in advance.
 
I am currently looking for some quotes to respond to this. Augustine said many things that protestants use to “prove” sola scriptura.

In this link from New Advent Augustine is responding to Jerome, and disagreeing with him. Augustine states that he does not agree with anyone (of his time) if their opinion does not agree with scripture. The differance between his statements and sola scriptura is that the beliefs of Catholicism do not disagree with scripture. Some may not be found explicity, (although they can be found implicitly) but nothing contradicts. Anyone who thinks that it contradicts has misunderstood.

newadvent.org/fathers/3001116.htm

You see, God did not withold the truth from the world until the time of Luther, it was there all of the time. Even if Augustine had believed in scripture alone(and he didn’t) the common interpretation of what it said was different than the current Protestant interpretation(s). Scripture is not saying all things to all people as some seem to think, the meaning was clear, and we have the Church Fathers to tell us what that interpretation was.

%between%
 
St. Augustine: “In the Catholic Church, there are many other things which most justly keep me in her bosom. The consent of peoples and nations keeps me in the Church; so does her authority, inaugurated by miracles, nourished by hope, enlarged by love, established by age. The succession of priests keeps me, beginning from the very seat of the Apostle Peter, to whom the Lord, after His resurrection, gave it in charge to feed His sheep, down to the present episcopate. And so, lastly, does the name itself Catholic, which, not without reason, amid so many heresies, the Church has thus retained; so that, though all heretics wish to be called Catholics, yet when a stranger asks where the Catholic Church meets, no heretic will venture to point to his own chapel or house. Such then in number and importance are the precious ties belonging to the Christian name which keep a believer in the Catholic Church, as it is right they should…With you, where there is none of these things to attract or keep me… No one shall move me from the faith which binds my mind with ties so many and so strong to the Christian religion…For **my **part, I should **not **believe the gospel except as moved by the authority of the Catholic Church.”

To locate the footnote, type a sentence of the above quote into “google” and you should be able to pull it up.
 
Sir,

You are the man!! Thank you so much for that wonderful quote, it is a blessing to my discussion.
Sincerely,
Rich
 
Even if Protestants can use Augustine out of contxt and claim he supported the sola scriptura argument, they still need to create a defense for themselves as to why they use a version of the scripture that Augustine did not approve. If they stand by what he says, it should be as a context of his entire message uniformly, not “choose and pick” tidbits. Many of the Catholic doctines Protestants oppose as “not being Biblical,” have roots in the books of the Bible that their predecessors edited out. I think it is supremely ironical, and perhaps even hypocritical to cry “sola scriptura, sola scriptura,” and then to base a belief system for life on an abridged version of the Bible.
 
Here’s some others from St. Augustine:
“Wherever this tradition comes from, we must believe that the Church has not believed in vain, even though the express authority of the canonical scriptures is not brought forward for it”
Letter 164 to Evodius of Uzalis

http://www.cin.org/users/jgallegos/res/dot_clr.gif
“To be sure, although on this matter, we cannot quote a clear example taken from the canonical Scriptures, at any rate, on this question, we are following the true thought of Scriptures when we observe what has appeared good to the universal Church which the authority of these same Scriptures recommends to you”
C. Cresconius I:33

http://www.cin.org/users/jgallegos/res/dot_clr.gif
“It is obvious; the faith allows it; the Catholic Church approves; it is true”
Sermon 117:6
Click to expand...
If St. Augustine was a *sola scripturist, *he sure had an odd way of expressing it. :rolleyes:
 
Hi Rich (Eleusis),

I’ve just finished reading a book called “Upon this Rock” by Steven K. Ray. While not dealing with Sola Scriptura, it deals with papal primacy and I think some principles apply here. Basically, the Church Fathers can be “prooftexted” just like the Scriptures.

St. Augustine was thoroughly Catholic. He believed in infant baptism, papal primacy, the Real Presence, etc. Others have already pointed this out to you with quotes and I’m too lazy too look them up for you. But I’m always amused by Protestants who quote Augustine in a “pick and choose” manner.

Blessings,
Gene
 
Here’s another:

“But in regards to those observances which we carefully attend and which the whole world keeps, and which we derive not from Scripture but from Tradition, we are given to understand that they are recommended and ordained to be kept, either by the Apostles themselves or by plenary [ecumenical] councils, the authority of which is quite vital in the Church.” (St. Augustine, Letter to Januarius, circa 398AD)

Let’s see them wiggle there way out of that one.

And here is the footnote to the first quote I provided: (Contra Epistolam Manichaei Quam Vacant Fundamenti, written 397 AD).
 
Protestants always kill themselves when the start whipping out the Fathers. Before the 400’s AD Not one Father correctly named all the books of Scripture. This fact alone should convince all but the most ideologically-addled that appealing to the Church Fathers to support SS or disprove x Catholic teaching, is suicide. They have to argue SS is a development, which again blows them out of the water because their decisions that one item is a legitimate development but another is a Catholic corruption are arbitrary.

Scott
 
I just ordered an Augustine book from a non-catholic bookstore(Calvary Chapel) the other day, just for the heck of it. They had to special order it and did not know who he was, so this is my little present for them.
For me this is my first foray into spreading my faith. It might not be the best way, but they had no pro-catholic books on the shelves, just anti-catholic. It was kinda spur of the moment and maybe not the most prudent decision but hopefully good comes out of this. I will let this book sit in their shop for a few days then come pick it up. Hopefully I can share some truth with them.
 
Here is an exchange we had today I lead off in black and his reply is red and my retort is blue:

Our discussion has settled on three points:

a) You refuse to recognize the significance that the very founders of our common Christian Faith taught the same things the Catholic Church teaches today (Mass itself, Baptism’s significance etc). ****The founder was the Apostle and you fail to realize and recognize the significance of the inaccuracy of your statement. You point to Ireneaus and Clemente and the ilk and they are not the founders. ****This “ilk” are the people who were closest to the Apostles and who had the teachings of the first Disciples passed onto them, we are still in the time frame with living history abounded to correct any mistakes made. People with living memory of exactly what the Apostles taught were there to correct teach and guide and produced those great thinkers we call the Church Doctors or Church Fathers today. And you dismiss them because they don’t fit neatly into a simplified spirituality which Martin Luther foisted upon a world looking for an easy road to heaven rather than the tough rigorous one Jesus himself eluded to when he said it will be very difficult to enter heaven. Your pamphlet itself shows why Catholicism is so despised by many, because the Catholic faith is not a simple recitation and perfunctory Sunday pew warming but is a rigorous regimen of faith backed by concrete actions and holds out the reality that we may actually lose our desired salvation and all of this teaching is backed by scriptures and the understanding of the great minds who shaped Christianity as we know it.

b) You refuse to accept that the Catholic Church’s teachings are based on Scripture–even when presented with them-- and instead believe that during the one thousand five hundred years prior to the Reformation the teachings of the Church were constantly in error and despite the fact they are in concert with the teachings of the early fathers it wasn’t until the Reformation that Christians were finally able to “get it right”.

****You are throwing out a general statement which is built on the alleged Church Father INFALLIBE NOR INERRANT. Point to something Paul or Peter taught ****You miss the point that Peter and Paul were there teaching the first Christians what to believe say and do to be faithful, and those new disciples captured that teaching in what we today call the deposit of faith. Their beliefs are the recorded writings I keep pointing to which harmonize with the current teaching of the Catholics and their understanding of Scripture. What it appears to me is that you hold to the idea until Martin Luther came along everyone before him had it wrong.
c) As a result of the two things above you firmly hold to the belief that any faithful Catholic is seriously at risk of going to hell.
**Only faith and faith alone in Jesus allows one to have a right relationship with God. There is no room for compromise. The moment you teach or believe a person has to do something other than believe than you have moved away from the concept of Grace… Anything else is antithetical and rejected by me because of what I have investigated and been taught by the Spirit of God. **

But again when you have been presented with scriptures of Jesus Christ himself speaking and directing that one must have faith and DO what he asks you wave your hands and say we misunderstand and have misunderstood until Martin Luther came along to correct things. Whew, sure am glad he was there, what about those previous one thousand five hundred years and all those souls?? I would think that the original Apostles had it right and they did as the evidence of their writings shows. It’s a shame their “complexity” eludes some faithful or caused others to shy away because of the discipline and obedience to authority it demands.
 
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