Augustine, slavery, and whipping

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People don’t whip slaves with a loving spirit. People rarely own others while possessing a loving spirit, there are exceptions there but once whipping comes in it stops.

Whiping slaves is wrong. Even if the time period said it was okay; unless morality changes over time?

Edit: answered before the edit, sorry.
Means of discipline change over time not morality. The Bible tells us to treat slaves properly and you (and I) do not know who has a loving spirit or not, nor there intentions when it comes to disciplining others because you and I did not live in that time period. Remember, the severity of discipline changed overtime including the thinking of what punishment should be like. I am only defending a possible hypothesis of Augustine’s thinking, not the way people discipline.

Augustine said this apparently:
If you see your slave living badly, what other punishment will you curb him with, if not the lash? Use it: do. God allows it. In fact he is angered if you don’t. But do it in a loving rather than a vindictive spirit.
 
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I think owning and whipping slaves is wrong no matter how you do it. Just because the person thinks they are doing something in a loving spirit the action itself is full of violence and harm.

One does not morally whip a slave. Times may have changed but whipping slaves is and always has been evil.
 
I think owning and whipping slaves is wrong no matter how you do it. Just because the person thinks they are doing something in a loving spirit the action itself is full of violence and harm.
And so you are telling me that a loving spirit would lash a slave using full on violence and harm? Have you ever considered the possibility that perhaps the lash is used in a way akin to using the belt? We don’t know the answer to that and so why go to the extreme with your reasoning?
 
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Alex337:
I think owning and whipping slaves is wrong no matter how you do it. Just because the person thinks they are doing something in a loving spirit the action itself is full of violence and harm.
And so you are telling me that a loving spirit would lash a slave using full on violence and harm? Have you ever considered the possibility that perhaps the lash is used in a way akin to using the belt? We don’t know the answer to that and so why go to the extreme with your reasoning?
I think you misread me. I said “full of”, not “full on”. Belting someone is also full of violence and harm.
 
The idea of a household was different in Augustine’s time. Heck, it was different just a few hundred years ago. The states role in mediating disputes was smaller. The head of a household was responsible for resolving disputes and disciplining. He was responsible for the welfare and behavior of those under him. It was an additional responsibility. We’ve moved away from that for good reason. While I’m not saying we have to give everything a pass, it would be making a categorical error to imagine a household and the state as it is today, as if the relationship was between a homeowner and a maid staff. This was how society was ordered. It was what they knew. And again, I’m not just taking slavery as a given, this is a much broader idea of the head of household’s responsibility for what went on under his roof. The non-blood members of the household weren’t family, but they weren’t just employed people in the sense we think of today. They were part of that household, and much of the responsibility for maintaining right behavior and discipline was on the head, not the state or civil courts. It’s a different way of thinking.

Also, Augustine would not have had chattel slavery in mind when he wrote this. Wage jobs weren’t around as much like they are today. This was how the sale of labor was handled much of the time, rather than doing it by the hour.
 
As for corporeal punishment as understood at the time, it would mean doing it with the wellbeing and correction of the person in mind, not out of pleasure at inflicting pain or working out anger issues.
 
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No. Adding context, especially when what we project onto the times from our own vantage point is inaccurate, doesn’t immediately mean “relativism.”
 
As for corporeal punishment was understood at the time, it would mean doing it with the wellbeing and correction of the person in mind, not out of pleasure at inflicting pain or working out anger issues.
Sorry, still doesn’t make whipping a slave right. Replace “whipping a slave” with any other evil and see if the “times have changed” defence still stands.
 
I think you misread me. I said “full of”, not “full on”. Belting someone is also full of violence and harm.
Nevertheless I still stand by my reasoning. Using a lash does cause pain but if done by a loving spirit then surely we could equate this form of lashing with using the belt? Then again I don’t live in Augustines world, and based off of the info given by that snippet, I have to assume the loving spirit would not violently beat a slave but rather discipline in a righteous way
 
No. Adding context, especially when what we project onto the times from our own vantage point is inaccurate, doesn’t immediately mean “relativism.”
It rather does. It gives the implication that the ethics and morals of owning and beating slaves alters.
 
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Wesrock:
As for corporeal punishment was understood at the time, it would mean doing it with the wellbeing and correction of the person in mind, not out of pleasure at inflicting pain or working out anger issues.
Sorry, still doesn’t make whipping a slave right. Replace “whipping a slave” with any other evil and see if the “times have changed” defence still stands.
Any other evil would be any deprivation of good. That includes things such as imprisonment of criminals, grounding or timeouts for children, etc…

This isn’t just a “times has changed” defense, either. Which means you completely missed my point.
 
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Alex337:
I think you misread me. I said “full of”, not “full on”. Belting someone is also full of violence and harm.
Nevertheless I still stand by my reasoning. Using a lash does cause pain but if done by a loving spirit then surely we could equate this form of lashing with using the belt? Then again I don’t live in Augustines world, and based off of the info given by that snippet, I have to assume the loving spirit would not violently beat a slave but rather discipline in a righteous way
Belting someone is also wrong. I think this discussion may be a touch pointless as it’s stymied at you thinking that beating people is okay and me thinking it’s not.
 
You are projecting and being reactionary. That’s not what I said.
 
Belting someone is also wrong. I think this discussion may be a touch pointless as it’s stymied at you thinking that beating people is okay and me thinking it’s not.
Yet 30 years ago others would disagree with you (in terms of belting). Also how dare you think that I think belting people is ok! I am only talking within CONTEXT of Augustines time period and giving an explanation of his reasoning from another time period
 
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Alex337:
Belting someone is also wrong. I think this discussion may be a touch pointless as it’s stymied at you thinking that beating people is okay and me thinking it’s not.
Yet 30 years ago others would disagree with you (in terms of belting). Also how dare you think that I think belting people is ok! I am only talking within CONTEXT of Augustines time period and giving an explanation of his reasoning
So you don’t think belting people is okay? Then how is it a defence of Augustine? That’s like saying " but he may not have meant this evil, it was likely this other evil".
 
In 30 years the state will raise all children in creches and we’ll be arguing about the barbarity of thinking parents had the authority to discipline children with timeouts and groundings.
 
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