Augustine versus Aquinas?

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Charlemagne_III

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Do you have a preference?

**I am mainly interested in areas of Agreement or Disagreement between Augustine and Aquinas. **

This will probably require some experts on both to make the thread work.

Doing research lately I discovered that Aquinas was viewed by some theologians of his era as a dangerous or even heretical theologian, and he was especially suspect for helping to revive the reputation of the pagan philosopher Aristotle in Europe. Some believed Aquinas was threatening the dominance of Augustine, who was the supreme theological authority, especially among the Franciscans who, upon Aquinas’s demise, could hardly wait to demolish his reputation as a rival to Augustine. This enmity toward Aquinas (even some Dominicans piled on) I believe lasted at least until his canonization about 50 years after his death.

Your thoughts?
 
Charlemagne_III said:
Do you have a preference?

**I am mainly interested in areas of Agreement or Disagreement between Augustine and Aquinas. **

This will probably require some experts on both to make the thread work.

Doing research lately I discovered that Aquinas was viewed by some theologians of his era as a dangerous or even heretical theologian, and he was especially suspect for helping to revive the reputation of the pagan philosopher Aristotle in Europe. Some believed Aquinas was threatening the dominance of Augustine, who was the supreme theological authority, especially among the Franciscans who, upon Aquinas’s demise, could hardly wait to demolish his reputation as a rival to Augustine. This enmity toward Aquinas (even some Dominicans piled on) I believe lasted at least until his canonization about 50 years after his death.

Your thoughts?
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I would be more surprised to find areas of disagreement. I always think of them as closely connected. Aquinas quotes Augustine a ton to support his theology.

I think they had a disagreement about the fate of infants who die without baptism. Augustine said they suffer the mildest punishments of hell, I think, and Aquinas said they do not suffer but attain perfect natural happiness.

As for a preference, I suppose in general I like Augustine better. I think he emphasized the areas where Plato was correct, while Aquinas emphasized the areas where Aristotle was correct. Augustine and Aquinas both accepted certain elements of both pagan authors, and rejected other elements.
 
Augustine held that the human memory was a spiritual power of the soul, while Aquinas held that it was physical.

ICXC NIKA
 
Charlemagne_III said:
Do you have a preference?

**I am mainly interested in areas of Agreement or Disagreement between Augustine and Aquinas. **

This will probably require some experts on both to make the thread work.

Doing research lately I discovered that Aquinas was viewed by some theologians of his era as a dangerous or even heretical theologian, and he was especially suspect for helping to revive the reputation of the pagan philosopher Aristotle in Europe. Some believed Aquinas was threatening the dominance of Augustine, who was the supreme theological authority, especially among the Franciscans who, upon Aquinas’s demise, could hardly wait to demolish his reputation as a rival to Augustine. This enmity toward Aquinas (even some Dominicans piled on) I believe lasted at least until his canonization about 50 years after his death.

Your thoughts?
Click to expand...
It’s the first time I hear about contemporary suspicions of Aquinas. I read E. Gilson’s history of medieval philosophy, I remember that Aquinas was met positively and with awe by his contemporaries. After all, he did nothing new gut offered the best synthesis of theology then known.

The methods of St. Ausutine and St. Thomas were hugely different. St. Augustine was more of a positivist theologian: scripture, faith and will alone, certain amount of disrespect to Ancient philosophy. St. Thomas elaborated on natural theology - he tried to prove the doctrine from philosophy and pure reason, using the Scripture as auxiliary source.
 
JurisPrudens said:
St. Thomas elaborated on natural theology - he tried to prove the doctrine from philosophy and pure reason, using the Scripture as auxiliary source.
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That is especially true of his Summa contra Gentiles, as I recall.

The *Summa Theologica *was more intended as a complete catechism of Catholic theology relying both upon Scripture and Reason. Aquinas certainly had advantages Augustine did not have. He was able to borrow not only from Plato but also from Aristotle and Augustine and all the theologians between Augustine and himself through about eight centuries.

Based on my readings, The Franciscans really did not take to Aquinas and were among those most anxious to defame him after his death. In 1275, two years after Aquinas’s death, Bishop Tempier of Paris included several of Aquinas’s teachings in his citation of heretical works.

Needless to say, after all the dust had settled, Aquinas was cleared of these charges.
 
In one of those little day to day calendar booklets I got from church, there was this quote from St Augustine “doubt is but another element of faith”.
Can anyone explain what he meant by that?
 
rose_kelly said:
In one of those little day to day calendar booklets I got from church, there was this quote from St Augustine “doubt is but another element of faith”.
Can anyone explain what he meant by that?
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It would seem that we have faith to overcome all doubts.
 
For what it’s worth, Hans Kung is not one of my favorite authors, he points out that Aquinas reversed the emphasis of Augustine “I want to believe in order to know” to “I want to know in order to believe.”
 
GEddie said:
Augustine held that the human memory was a spiritual power of the soul, while Aquinas held that it was physical.

ICXC NIKA
Click to expand...
This is not correct. Aquinas teaches, following Augustine, that there is a spiritual memory in the intellectual soul (ST, Part I, Q. 79, art. 6). There is also a sensory memory which we share with animals.
 
Charlemagne_III said:
Do you have a preference?

**I am mainly interested in areas of Agreement or Disagreement between Augustine and Aquinas. **

This will probably require some experts on both to make the thread work.

Doing research lately I discovered that Aquinas was viewed by some theologians of his era as a dangerous or even heretical theologian, and he was especially suspect for helping to revive the reputation of the pagan philosopher Aristotle in Europe. Some believed Aquinas was threatening the dominance of Augustine, who was the supreme theological authority, especially among the Franciscans who, upon Aquinas’s demise, could hardly wait to demolish his reputation as a rival to Augustine. This enmity toward Aquinas (even some Dominicans piled on) I believe lasted at least until his canonization about 50 years after his death.

Your thoughts?
Click to expand...
Both are great theologians. Aquinas had deep respect for Augustine as well as for all the church fathers. Aquinas had the advantage, as coming centuries after Augustine, of synthetizing the teaching of the church fathers, as well as synthesizing the philosophy of Plato and Aristotle, and the arabian and jewish philosophers.

Aquinas was not the only one who used Aristotle in his writings, all the scholastic theologians did including the franciscans. The availability of the writings of Aristotle to the latin west is what fostered the study of him. Aquinas’ teacher, St Albert the Great, taught Aquinas about Aristotle. So, we can’t really say that Aquinas is the only one to restore Aristotle’s reputation. Aquinas used Aristotle in his theology because he saw that there was a lot of truth in what Aristotle said which was in conformity with Catholic doctrine and the faith. Aristotle was a great philosopher. We should not forget though that Plato is also used quite a bit in Aquinas as well as in Augustine.

Off the top of my head, a couple of doctrines that Aquinas held that the Franciscan thinkers thought were suspect are: the unicity of the substantial form; the primacy of the intellect; each angel is a separate species; the complete immateriality of the angels. In my opinion, I think St Thomas is correct on all of these, the immateriality of the angels is the Church’s faith. The one that may be more open to different theological opinions is about whether each angel is a separate species in itself; though, according to St Thomas’ philosophical principles, this is the conclusion of them.
 
The minds of both men are extraordinary. They both are like vessels that have carried us in a deeper understanding of our faith through the scriptures and tradition each teaching being necessary to explain the faith to a current and future generations. Many have thought John Paul II was the next person after Aquinas to carry the faithful to a deeper understanding as like the time of Aquinas the arguments and explanations of faith needed or need a new lens to be viewed through. Not new teaching but presented in a way the current and future generations can understand. I would add Tertuillian as one of the those great minds.

I would say Augustine and Aquinas are not opposed, but offer differing explanations for the same truth to their respective generations (often centuries) onward.
 
“Even when he reveals himself, God remains a mystery beyond words: If you understood him, it would not be God.” (St. Augustine, Sermo 52, 6, 16: PL 38, 360 and Sermo 117, 3, 5: PL …

So we can indirectly understand God to a degree as Aquinas insists, but we cannot comprehend him directly, and if we think we have, we have been deluded.

It’s interesting that Aquinas shortly before his death ceased to work on the Summa, which was 2/3 done. When urged to resume by his secretary, he replied that what had been revealed to him made everything he had written seem as straw.

Did Aquinas come full circle back to the embrace of Augustine?
 
Since the pontificate of John Paul II, Catholics are nudged to accept Aquinas. They are slightly encouraged, but free to disagree with him on everything that is not from Papal or collegial authority.

On Plato though, can any name some or anything from him that is specifically his doctrine and which was approved of by Augustine or Aquinas? I’ve read some of his dialogues around ten years ago, but people often say general things about him but hardly ever quote him.
 
thinkandmull said:
Since the pontificate of John Paul II, Catholics are nudged to accept Aquinas. They are slightly encouraged, but free to disagree with him on everything that is not from Papal or collegial authority.

On Plato though, can any name some or anything from him that is specifically his doctrine and which was approved of by Augustine or Aquinas? I’ve read some of his dialogues around ten years ago, but people often say general things about him but hardly ever quote him.
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Augustine seems to have been directly and indirectly influenced by the dialogues of Plato.

Aquinas hardly at all, since Aquinas discovered in Aristotle (a student of Plato) much that was in conflict with and preferable to Plato, as this article points out.

givingananswer.org/articles/platoandaquinas.html
 
Charlemagne_III said:
For what it’s worth, Hans Kung is not one of my favorite authors, he points out that Aquinas reversed the emphasis of Augustine “I want to believe in order to know” to “I want to know in order to believe.”
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Hans Kung is not correct here. Aquinas was first a man of faith and more specifically the catholic faith, and then a theologian. Aquinas is a canonized saint. One can read his treatise on faith to understand this where he quotes the scripture “without faith, it is impossible to please God.” Aquinas was a genious and he used the intelligence God gave him for God’s glory. We can’t knock St Thomas for being a genious which God gave him. Maybe Hans Kung was envious of him.
 
thinkandmull said:
Since the pontificate of John Paul II, Catholics are nudged to accept Aquinas. They are slightly encouraged, but free to disagree with him on everything that is not from Papal or collegial authority.

On Plato though, can any name some or anything from him that is specifically his doctrine and which was approved of by Augustine or Aquinas? I’ve read some of his dialogues around ten years ago, but people often say general things about him but hardly ever quote him.
Click to expand...
Yes, Plato established the formal cause of things but he separated the ideas or forms of things from things as if they lived in a world apart from the things of this world. Aristotle placed the ideas or forms as a substantial principle of the things of this world. St Thomas agreed with Aristotle here and Aristotle’s doctrine of hylemorphism. Augustine placed the ideas of Plato in the divine mind and so does Aquinas. Plato’s doctrine of the participation of the material things in this world in the ideas is a doctrine of paramount importance for both Augustine and Aquinas. Creatures participate in God’s existence and other perfections. In fact, the fourth proof of Aquinas for the existence of God which is founded on the gradation of being stems from Platonism. Also, the doctrine of exemplarism (similar to participation) comes from Plato. We can read in both Augustine and Aquinas that the divine ideas are the exemplars of the creatures that God created.

Plato also has the idea of the absolute good, absolute being, absolute beauty and justice, etc. Both Augustine and Aquinas use these terms for God. Plato also held to a providence of God, the immateriality and spirituality of the human soul. Augustine was influenced by Plato in his philosophy and it carries over to Aquinas. There is more Platonism in Aquinas then people may think. Of course, there is a lot of Aristotlelianism as well. I’m not sure Augustine had the works of Aristotle at his disposal as he did Plato. If he had, then he didn’t understand Aristotle as Aquinas did or he was simply more interested in Plato. Aquinas synthesizes the best of both Plato and Aristotle. The church fathers are Platonist in their philosophy. Boethius comments some on Aristotle but the philosophy of Aristotle did not come to the fore of the christian religion until scholasticism. Plato and Aristotle complement each other and St Thomas synthesized their doctrine that was in conformity with the teaching of the church fathers and the catholic faith.
 
Richca said:
Yes, Plato established the formal cause of things but he separated the ideas or forms of things from things as if they lived in a world apart from the things of this world. Aristotle placed the ideas or forms as a substantial principle of the things of this world. St Thomas agreed with Aristotle here and Aristotle’s doctrine of hylemorphism. Augustine placed the ideas of Plato in the divine mind and so does Aquinas. Plato’s doctrine of the participation of the material things in this world in the ideas is a doctrine of paramount importance for both Augustine and Aquinas. Creatures participate in God’s existence and other perfections. In fact, the fourth proof of Aquinas for the existence of God which is founded on the gradation of being stems from Platonism. Also, the doctrine of exemplarism (similar to participation) comes from Plato. We can read in both Augustine and Aquinas that the divine ideas are the exemplars of the creatures that God created.

Plato also has the idea of the absolute good, absolute being, absolute beauty and justice, etc. Both Augustine and Aquinas use these terms for God. Plato also held to a providence of God, the immateriality and spirituality of the human soul. Augustine was influenced by Plato in his philosophy and it carries over to Aquinas. There is more Platonism in Aquinas then people may think. Of course, there is a lot of Aristotlelianism as well. I’m not sure Augustine had the works of Aristotle at his disposal as he did Plato. If he had, then he didn’t understand Aristotle as Aquinas did or he was simply more interested in Plato. Aquinas synthesizes the best of both Plato and Aristotle. The church fathers are Platonist in their philosophy. Boethius comments some on Aristotle but the philosophy of Aristotle did not come to the fore of the christian religion until scholasticism. Plato and Aristotle complement each other and St Thomas synthesized their doctrine that was in conformity with the teaching of the church fathers and the catholic faith.
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Agreed.

I suspect Plato was agreeable to the early Fathers mostly because he was a utopian (idealist) philosopher. Aristotle apparently was not and disagreed enough with Plato to make himself more of a pagan than a Christian. It was the genius of Aquinas to see through this error and restore Aristotle to his rightful place among the great philosophers of the world (not to mention his place as the premier scientist of his day).
 
According to Philipp Rosemann in his book Peter Lombard, around the time of Augustine Greek had ceased to be the language spoken by the educated class in the Western Empire. The influence of Plato was still lively through the influence of Plotinus and his Latin followers, but Aristotle was not yet translated, which may be the principal reason why the Fathers did not take to him.

Boethius planned a complete translation of Aristotle’s works into Latin in the early 6th century but his project was cut short when he was accused of treason and executed. For the next six centuries Aristotle, except for his writings on logic, would be forgotten in the West until he was rediscovered by way of Arabic translations discovered during the Crusades and translated into Latin.
 
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