"Authority" - A difference between Catholic and "Protestant" understanding

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I have been involved in a discussion on another board about “church” in Mt 18:17.
Some Protestants want to say that it refers strictly to the local assembly - but I do not so I was asking for biblical support for the “strictly local” understanding.

Anyway - during the course of discussion, it became rather apparent to me that whenever the word “authority” was used, there was an assumption of "authority over (as in “lording it over”) another location. Naturally many protestants are adverse to this.

I proposed that authority between church locations is not a matter of “Authority over” but rather “Authority with”. Not a lording by one group over another, but rather leadership in the various locations communicating and working together to protect the Gospel.
I think that this really describes how the Catholic Church tries to govern. The Bishops (the elders of their local communities) as a whole form the magisterium in communion with the Bishop of Rome.

I wondered what others might think of this idea…Is “Authority” another one of those words that both Catholics and protestants use but we each think something different when we hear or read the term?

If you agree with this…it might prove useful in discussions to recognize this potential mental block so that you don’t wind up talking past each other.

Thoughts?

Peace
James
 
JRKH said:
I have been involved in a discussion on another board about “church” in Mt 18:17.
Some Protestants want to say that it refers strictly to the local assembly - but I do not so I was asking for biblical support for the “strictly local” understanding.

Anyway - during the course of discussion, it became rather apparent to me that whenever the word “authority” was used, there was an assumption of "authority over (as in “lording it over”) another location. Naturally many protestants are adverse to this.

I proposed that authority between church locations is not a matter of “Authority over” but rather “Authority with”. Not a lording by one group over another, but rather leadership in the various locations communicating and working together to protect the Gospel.
I think that this really describes how the Catholic Church tries to govern. The Bishops (the elders of their local communities) as a whole form the magisterium in communion with the Bishop of Rome.

I wondered what others might think of this idea…Is “Authority” another one of those words that both Catholics and protestants use but we each think something different when we hear or read the term?

If you agree with this…it might prove useful in discussions to recognize this potential mental block so that you don’t wind up talking past each other.

Thoughts?

Peace
James
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When I speak with Protestants about “authority,” I’m usually referring to doctrinal authority, that is, binding authority in the areas of faith and morals. What you describe sounds more like administrative authority.

Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+
 
Protestantism is founded upon a revolt against authority, especially as embodied in the hierarchy; and this revolt was in part a reaction against abuses of authority, real and imagined. It should not surprise us, therefore, if the language of authority and hierarchy make some Protestants uneasy, even though they are centuries removed from the initial separation. There’s a similar phenomenon with radical feminists. They so associate words like “authority,” “govern,” and “head” with concepts like “control,” “dominate,” and “abuse” (indeed, some think they are synonymous) that it can be difficult to have a conversation, even if you are calm and rational.

In either situation, on both sides of the issue, heavy-handed and hot-headed apologists complicate matters. It can be hard to be patient and kind when someone’s attacking your faith especially in a belligerent manner which seems to validate your viewpoint that all X are Y.
 
Cruciform said:
When I speak with Protestants about “authority,” I’m usually referring to doctrinal authority, that is, binding authority in the areas of faith and morals. What you describe sounds more like administrative authority.
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Well of course the two things are somewhat interconnected aren’t they? I mean - if the issue is a doctrinal one (say like what happened in Acts 15) then it is the administrative structure that provides the means to resolve it.

Ad Orientem touches on what I am getting at - the tendency for people to view “authority” as “power to force” rather than responsibility to cooperate.

Peace
James
 
Ad_Orientem said:
Protestantism is founded upon a revolt against authority, especially as embodied in the hierarchy; and this revolt was in part a reaction against abuses of authority, real and imagined. It should not surprise us, therefore, if the language of authority and hierarchy make some Protestants uneasy, even though they are centuries removed from the initial separation. There’s a similar phenomenon with radical feminists. They so associate words like “authority,” “govern,” and “head” with concepts like “control,” “dominate,” and “abuse” (indeed, some think they are synonymous) that it can be difficult to have a conversation, even if you are calm and rational.

In either situation, on both sides of the issue, heavy-handed and hot-headed apologists complicate matters. It can be hard to be patient and kind when someone’s attacking your faith especially in a belligerent manner which seems to validate your viewpoint that all X are Y.
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Re - bolded…Yes - this is what I am suggesting…

I agree that when the discussion is heated, there is little anyone can do. However - if the discussion is calm we at least have a chance to address this issue, and I think that if we try to bring forward the ideas of cooperation among the bishops (magisterium) and the heavy responsibility borne by these men it might open a way for the Spirit to soften their hearts to the Catholic Church.

Just some thoughts.

Peace
James
 
Ad_Orientem said:
Protestantism is founded upon a revolt against authority, especially as embodied in the hierarchy; and this revolt was in part a reaction against abuses of authority, real and imagined. It should not surprise us, therefore, if the language of authority and hierarchy make some Protestants uneasy, even though they are centuries removed from the initial separation. There’s a similar phenomenon with radical feminists. They so associate words like “authority,” “govern,” and “head” with concepts like “control,” “dominate,” and “abuse” (indeed, some think they are synonymous) that it can be difficult to have a conversation, even if you are calm and rational.

In either situation, on both sides of the issue, heavy-handed and hot-headed apologists complicate matters. It can be hard to be patient and kind when someone’s attacking your faith especially in a belligerent manner which seems to validate your viewpoint that all X are Y.
Click to expand...
much like lucifer’s revolt against God’s authority.
 
This seems to make sense to me. In the doctrinal sense, the authority seems to be more like a communal ability (and responsibility) to discern what is true rather than some sort of monarch-like ability to decide what is true.

This may also be why some protestants I have spoken with have no idea what I’m talking about at first when I say that the personal interpretation approach to scriptures is claiming an authority that as individuals we do not have - they look at me funny and say that they aren’t claiming authority, they’re just reading and trying to figure it out.

But in a sense, the ability to figure it out and to know when it is figured out is the authority that is vested in the Magisterium. Our bishops don’t simply proclaim that a thing is true and then as a consequence it becomes so - rather they, as a whole, can know when the truth has been discovered.

There are similarities of course - on the surface and for those who do not dig into it deeply, there may be little apparent difference between being told that “the group of people who we know are entrusted with the ability to come together and discern the truth without error have discovered X, and so logically we must now follow that if we wish to continue to claim that that group has that ability (ie, be Catholic),” and being told that “the boss says X, so do X”. Especially if we don’t like X.

But I do think there’s a difference, and that it is worth mentioning that the Church’s occasional recourse to the applying of the Magisterial boot to some heretical buttock flows from the fact that the Church’s authority is a coming together under the Bishop of Rome, whereas heresy is a dishonest divergence, a splitting apart that usually won’t admit what it is and often claims to be part of the coming together, and that the Church must make it clear that it is lying. Wolves in sheep’s clothing must be shown to be wolves, sort of thing.

That is, occasionally the authority must proclaim itself somewhat loudly and at the risk of appearing to be lording over people so that it is harder for people to pretend to be part of this coming together while they’re really wandering off and doing their own thing. But this is never what the Church wants to do or how it would be supposed to operate in an ideal world (one without lies etc.).
 
JRKH said:
I have been involved in a discussion on another board about “church” in Mt 18:17.
Some Protestants want to say that it refers strictly to the local assembly - but I do not so I was asking for biblical support for the “strictly local” understanding.

Anyway - during the course of discussion, it became rather apparent to me that whenever the word “authority” was used, there was an assumption of "authority over (as in “lording it over”) another location. Naturally many protestants are adverse to this.

I proposed that authority between church locations is not a matter of “Authority over” but rather “Authority with”. Not a lording by one group over another, but rather leadership in the various locations communicating and working together to protect the Gospel.
I think that this really describes how the Catholic Church tries to govern. The Bishops (the elders of their local communities) as a whole form the magisterium in communion with the Bishop of Rome.

I wondered what others might think of this idea…Is “Authority” another one of those words that both Catholics and protestants use but we each think something different when we hear or read the term?

If you agree with this…it might prove useful in discussions to recognize this potential mental block so that you don’t wind up talking past each other.

Thoughts?

Peace
James
Click to expand...
I’ve thought of it, before, like King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table. They are all on equal ground, though ultimately, King Arthur has final say.
 
]Let us pray…

It has been said that we too must also recognize that man seeks God better and finds him more easily “in prayer than in discussion”.:twocents:
 
JRKH said:
I have been involved in a discussion on another board about “church” in Mt 18:17.
Some Protestants want to say that it refers strictly to the local assembly - but I do not so I was asking for biblical support for the “strictly local” understanding.

Anyway - during the course of discussion, it became rather apparent to me that whenever the word “authority” was used, there was an assumption of "authority over (as in “lording it over”) another location. Naturally many protestants are adverse to this.

I proposed that authority between church locations is not a matter of “Authority over” but rather “Authority with”. Not a lording by one group over another, but rather leadership in the various locations communicating and working together to protect the Gospel.
I think that this really describes how the Catholic Church tries to govern. The Bishops (the elders of their local communities) as a whole form the magisterium in communion with the Bishop of Rome.

I wondered what others might think of this idea…Is “Authority” another one of those words that both Catholics and protestants use but we each think something different when we hear or read the term?

If you agree with this…it might prove useful in discussions to recognize this potential mental block so that you don’t wind up talking past each other.

Thoughts?

Peace
James
Click to expand...
Love this! It’s true too. Many times the Pope is not present at counsil meetings. He is humbly absent, which encourages lively, open discussions among the bishops, and theologians. Vatican II was amazing by the thousands who had (name removed by moderator)ut. Non Catholics have also attended.

Also the Church teaches subsidiarity, which is so humble, and respectful.
 
Sorry i can’t share any comment of worth…Seems there are always misunderstandings when emphasis migrates from issues to words…perhaps an algorithm showing the inverse correlation of education level and understanding would be more effective…Let us just use prime numbers for language and then all will be made clear…:shamrock2:

Lord, make me an instrument of your peace.
Where there is hatred, let me sow love;
where there is injury,pardon;
where there is doubt, faith;
where there is despair, hope;
where there is darkness, light;
and where there is sadness, joy.

O Divine Master, grant that I may not so much seek
to be consoled as to console;
to be understood as to understand;
to be loved as to love.
For it is in giving that we receive;
it is in pardoning that we are pardoned;
and it is in dying that we are born to eternal life. Amen:harp:
 
“When I speak with Protestants about “authority,” I’m usually referring to doctrinal authority, that is, binding authority in the areas of faith and morals.”

Cruciform,

Would you be willing to explain Roman Catholic authority? What is the authority that gives the Roman Catholic Church it’s authority?
 
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