Awesome article about how it's impossible to abuse NFP

[bitterhope]

Posts like this demonstrate the attitude many women have towards other women with say 3 kids who have chosen through fertility awareness to limit their family size, like myself. Nobody here has said that having big families is wrong or irresponsible. It’s the other way around! That’s what the whole thread is actually about!

You quoted one small part of my post without even mentioning why the post was written. It has nothing at all to do with family size, how close in age kids are, or when a couple has them. I really don’t care whether you or anyone else uses NFP for a month or for life. If it works for you–terrific! But it is wrong to imply that well spaced and fewer kids farther apart are the key to marital bliss and personal joy. I have noticed the most vocal proponents for NFP on this forum seem to think that it is for everyone and is what makes a happy home life. What happens to the many of us that in real life, living real marriages, in which no single method of NFP works even close to as well as advertised here, CCL, several FAM/NFP websites, at local parishes, through some OB’s? Do you suggest these couples curl up and cry? Do they start using ABC or get sterilized? Or do you think they should work in finding joy in their lives, living how God chose for them to live? Maybe the fact that you or any one else has multiple years of NFP success in avoiding and has possibly also used it to achieve pregnancy successfully shows that while in some peoples’ families it is alright to use. The ones for us that it never works for could also be a sign pointing to it’s not right for us to use at that time in our families.

Why is this so much of a hot button topic for people here? It’s silly that Catholics fight harder about NFP -vs- using nothing than they do about NFP -vs- ABC. I’m sorry if you took offense at what I posted. It wasn’t intended to offend you or anyone else. It just isn’t right that often on CAF, couples that have many children close in age are made out to look as if they are gluttons for punishment and doomed to an eternity if sadness. It’s an unfair characterization that I would hope Catholics wouldn’t hold towards other Catholics. Moms with smaller families can feel just as overwhelmed, and sometimes more so, than moms of many. Blanket generalizations are not helpful. It does no one any good to throw out scare tactics to sway others to their side. Life doesn’t have to be doom and gloom all the time. It is possible to be joyful and accepting of things as life brings them. It is still cooperating with God by accepting what He gives and them purposely finding the joy in your particular circumstances.

 

[Xantippe]

Not everyone feels this way. It is not wrong in any way, shape or form to get married young, have children right away and several close together. What us wrong is not accepting the life the good Lord lays out for you. If NFP works for a couple and they can plan out how many children they choose and when those children are born then fine. But is that what truly makes a couple find joy and happiness in life? I am having a very hard time believing that. I too have read many posts in CAF where moms are depressed and usually these moms are not moms of many babies close together. Usually these are moms practicing NFP to plan out their families and only have 1-3 kids. Does that mean that NFP makes couples stressed out? I think the answer lies more with how a couple prayerfully discerns living the life that God plans for them. NFP can be abused. It can be used selfishly and for reasons that are unjust. Leaving family size up to God is not the same thing as working hard at conceiving every few months for 25+ years. It is very possible to just allow married life to naturally follow it’s own course and neither try to make or try to avoid children. It is very possible to be happy and have lots of close in age babies. I have never been depressed and my marriage has never suffered stress because of having children. I was severely stressed while trying to use NFP–which will never work for me–and letting go of the need/desire to control was a very freeing experience for me. It’s not always easy, but it’s not a depressing existence either.

1. Not everybody feels like Bethany Torode/Bethany Patchin. But the problem is that she didn’t know how she was going to feel about having lots of kids at an early age, either–she probably thought it was going to be AMAZING. So, a young woman considering a similar path has no idea whether she’s going to be more like Bethany Patchin or like you when she is suddenly blessed with four kids in six years. (And, of course postpartum depression may play a role–the more pregnancies, the more opportunities for PPD.) You had a bunch of kids at the same age and were just fine. She had a bunch of kids at an early age and flipped out. We cannot guarantee by force of will that we will be just fine–it doesn’t work that way.
2. “I too have read many posts in CAF where moms are depressed and usually these moms are not moms of many babies close together. Usually these are moms practicing NFP to plan out their families and only have 1-3 kids. Does that mean that NFP makes couples stressed out?”

I think what that means is that trouble often arrives much earlier than people expect it. My two oldest were 32 months apart, and it was HARD during that second pregnancy and for the next year or two, and part of what made it HARD was that at the time, my husband didn’t understand how hard it was (he’s since figured that out, particularly after the oldest got an autism spectrum diagnosis). I think this is very common among the menfolk (and some of the older womenfolk with selective memories). As I’ve mentioned before in these threads, one of our older male relatives was once heard grumbling, “Why is she [me] having such a hard time? Lots of women do just FINE with five kids.” That older relative and his wife had had two kids about 10 years apart and truth be told, now that we have three, his wife has indicated to us that we shouldn’t all visit at the same time, as he can’t cope with being around three–even being around two well-behaved school age children for a week pushes him to the limit…

I try to make a point of telling moms with the toddler/infant combo that yes, it is hard, and it’s not hard because you’re doing something wrong, it just is hard and one just needs to wait it out. I think it would not be helpful of me to tell women that if they just trusted God more and had more faith, everything would be awesome. Two is harder than we give it credit for being–it’s not a coincidence that so many people stop having kids right after they have two.

 

[LongingSoul]

You quoted one small part of my post without even mentioning why the post was written. It has nothing at all to do with family size, how close in age kids are, or when a couple has them. I really don’t care whether you or anyone else uses NFP for a month or for life. If it works for you–terrific! But it is wrong to imply that well spaced and fewer kids farther apart are the key to marital bliss and personal joy. I have noticed the most vocal proponents for NFP on this forum seem to think that it is for everyone and is what makes a happy home life. What happens to the many of us that in real life, living real marriages, in which no single method of NFP works even close to as well as advertised here, CCL, several FAM/NFP websites, at local parishes, through some OB’s? Do you suggest these couples curl up and cry? Do they start using ABC or get sterilized? Or do you think they should work in finding joy in their lives, living how God chose for them to live? Maybe the fact that you or any one else has multiple years of NFP success in avoiding and has possibly also used it to achieve pregnancy successfully shows that while in some peoples’ families it is alright to use. The ones for us that it never works for could also be a sign pointing to it’s not right for us to use at that time in our families.

Why is this so much of a hot button topic for people here? It’s silly that Catholics fight harder about NFP -vs- using nothing than they do about NFP -vs- ABC. I’m sorry if you took offense at what I posted. It wasn’t intended to offend you or anyone else. It just isn’t right that often on CAF, couples that have many children close in age are made out to look as if they are gluttons for punishment and doomed to an eternity if sadness. It’s an unfair characterization that I would hope Catholics wouldn’t hold towards other Catholics. Moms with smaller families can feel just as overwhelmed, and sometimes more so, than moms of many. Blanket generalizations are not helpful. It does no one any good to throw out scare tactics to sway others to their side. Life doesn’t have to be doom and gloom all the time. It is possible to be joyful and accepting of things as life brings them. It is still cooperating with God by accepting what He gives and them purposely finding the joy in your particular circumstances.

Perhaps I haven’t been on enough NFP related threads, but what I see as most commonly occurring is someone taking offense at positive reviews of NFP because they don’t do family planning themselves. There always seems to be a step missing because I’ve never actually seen anyone criticise those who don’t plan. Why would anyone (unless there is gross neglect or hardship resulting) I’m guessing a lot of people that adopt the quiverfull approach have found that NFP failed them and perhaps they have unresolved resentment at having to adopt a new approach. Our psyche works in strange ways when we harbour hidden resentments and perhaps its making praise of NFP appear to be criticism of you.

Honestly I’ve never seen anyone here attack personal providentialists. I think more power to you. What I see is people having to defend NFP against theoretical providentialists.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

I’m not sure what the umbrage about the article is:

This is the point the author wants to make:

Quoting from the article:

The teaching of the Church with respect to family planning is straightforward, clear and easily summarized.

1. Spouses must be willing to accept children lovingly.

1. Spouses may not practice contraception.

1. Taking into consideration a whole range and variety of factors, including physical, economic, psychological and sociological factors, spouses may do well to practice Natural Family Planning to space children and/or limit family size, provided that they do so with due moral seriousness—with a generous, responsible and prayerful sense of what they owe to God, to one another, to their children and to society.

That’s all.

The theoretical providentialists wish there were more to it than that. They wish they could find quotations in Humanae Vitae to support their view of the matter, as, for instance:

“NFP, while distinguishable from contraception in not being absolutely immoral, is seldom licit and always regrettable.”

“Most married couples (especially in the wealthy West) are perfectly capable of having large families, and most reasons cited for not having large families are bogus.”

“Couples who choose to have large families are making the religiously and morally superior choice.”

“Since selfishness is such a near and present danger, no one should practice NFP without first consulting a priest.”

“The following do not constitute valid reasons for using NFP: wanting to finish your education; wanting to save up for children’s future education; being tired; being stressed; being burdened by debt; having to move; having a small, crowded house; being depressed; feeling overwhelmed, etc.”

And I have read here on these threads people making these arguments in favor of providentialism.

Just check how often a young couple pops on and says that they need to postpone for a bit after marriage and then someone advises, “you should postpone your wedding”

Or how often someone will insist that only grave reasons are necessary to use NFP, and not serious or just.

I remember a poster said her sister was committing sin because although she was wealthy she only had 2 or 3 kids, and her reasons were selfish.

Another poster claimed that if a couple had such serious reasons, they needed to abstain completely, if their reasons were not that serious, then NFP was illicit.

At the same time, I see posters with large families post about a new pregnancy. Usually they are congratulated and told that they will be prayed for, and for God to bless them. I’ve never seen a negative reaction. I’m sure that of a negative reaction were posted, it would be removed by the mods.

 

[maryjk]

I’m not sure what the umbrage about the article is:

This is the point the author wants to make:

Quoting from the article:

And I have read here on these threads people making these arguments in favor of providentialism.

Just check how often a young couple pops on and says that they need to postpone for a bit after marriage and then someone advises, “you should postpone your wedding”

Or how often someone will insist that only grave reasons are necessary to use NFP, and not serious or just.

I remember a poster said her sister was committing sin because although she was wealthy she only had 2 or 3 kids, and her reasons were selfish.

Another poster claimed that if a couple had such serious reasons, they needed to abstain completely, if their reasons were not that serious, then NFP was illicit.

I’ve had people here, on CAF, say some of these very things to me.

I can’t count how many times I have been told that I should have my pastor’s approval to use NFP. Or that if my health condition is serious enough to not get pregnant, that I should abstain completely.

I remember once being told that since I received one miracle (my first child), then I should continue to ask for more. When I asked about dying or my baby dying, I was told that maybe that was God’s will and I was blocking His will by not trying to get pregnant. Yes, I was actually told that. Yes, right here on CAF.

 

[mommamaree]

I’ve had people here, on CAF, say some of these very things to me.

I can’t count how many times I have been told that I should have my pastor’s approval to use NFP. Or that if my health condition is serious enough to not get pregnant, that I should abstain completely.

I remember once being told that since I received one miracle (my first child), then I should continue to ask for more. When I asked about dying or my baby dying, I was told that maybe that was God’s will and I was blocking His will by not trying to get pregnant. Yes, I was actually told that. Yes, right here on CAF.

I remember reading such advice here at CAF just last week. I think in that case it might have been directed at another forum member, but it was stunning in how cavalier some people are about the lives of others.

 

[Xantippe]

I remember reading such advice here at CAF just last week. I think in that case it might have been directed at another forum member, but it was stunning in how cavalier some people are about the lives of others.

Yeah–I can’t remember which thread it was, but I remember seeing that recently.

I think that thread was regarding a woman pregnant with her fourth baby and expecting a fourth c-section. Her doctor, very naturally, was urging her not to get pregnant anymore (presumably because after so many c-sections the danger of rupture could kill both her and any subsequent baby). Meanwhile, at least one CAF poster in that thread was doing exactly what mommamaree remembers–urging the poster to trust God and just go right ahead. Ugh.

People are sometimes very irresponsible about this stuff. I feel queasy enough just suggesting very conservative NFP in those cases.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I feel queasy enough just suggesting very conservative NFP in those cases.

Hmmmm Interesting…

 

[Burt_Macklin]

People are sometimes very irresponsible about this stuff. I feel queasy enough just suggesting very conservative NFP in those cases.

Getting advice from people who really aren’t affected by the outcome of their advice is a really bad idea. It’s no skin off of their nose if there is an unplanned pregnancy. The only advice I can live with in cases like you’ve described is complete abstinence.

 

[Xantippe]

Getting advice from people who really aren’t affected by the outcome of their advice is a really bad idea. It’s no skin off of their nose if there is an unplanned pregnancy. The only advice I can live with in cases like you’ve described is complete abstinence.

I suppose mentioning the options of VERY conservative NFP (some risk) or total abstinence (no risk) is probably best. If I had a potentially fatal medical issue, given my history with NFP, I think I’d be comfortable with very conservative NFP as being good enough.

I would be very concerned about suggesting even very conservative NFP to somebody with a dangerous medical situation and a history of repeated NFP failure.

 

[Bookcat]

**Compendium **issued by Pope Benedict XVI (very nice brief summary)

497. When is it moral to regulate births?

2368-2369
2399

The regulation of births, which is an aspect of responsible fatherhood and motherhood, is objectively morally acceptable when it is pursued by the spouses without external pressure; when it is practiced not out of selfishness but for serious reasons; and with methods that conform to the objective criteria of morality, that is, periodic continence and use of the infertile periods.

vatican.va/archive/compendium_ccc/documents/archive_2005_compendium-ccc_en.html