Bach allowed to be played for the Mass?

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Sarabande said:
Yes, that is true. Music directors and musicians for liturgies always have to be aware of particular works and/or the styles of how a piece of music is rendered. To me, there is also a difference between sacred music AND religious music. With sacred music such as chant and sacred polyphony which is refined as compared to some secular polyphony -especially early secular polyphony - it’s “difficult” to make it sound secular. Then there is sacred liturgical music written specifically for mass, but can span from being refined enough to be appropriate at mass, whether in the “performance” of the instrumentation or the way it is sung, OR sounds too secular in how it is composed or performed.

It is the same with religious music which would encompass worship music, classical religious music (ie. Gounod’s “O Divine Redeemer”), hymns, certain kinds of choral music, etc.

Although the style of the music does make a difference in the appropriateness for liturgy, (for instance, you can have totally appropriate liturgical music, but then it is changed stylistically to mimic a more pop/jazz/rock/operatic/symphonic etc. sound, thus turning it into sounding too secular) it also depends on the way the musician (instrumentalist or singer) views himself/herself as a church musician. But unless you know the musician personally, you usually can’t tell whether or not that musician is making it about them or truly doing it for God and using his/her talents to the best that God gave them. For instance, with very old polyphonic works to newer works that were always “performed” at mass, the treble line for the sopranos will always have the so-called high notes. If a person makes that assumption whether thinking that the musician must be too into himself from singing something that they believe is too reverent and holier-than-thou to being a show-off because he can play an organ work by Couperin, Bach or Buxtehude with perfection or sing too well, then that is the problem with that particular person - not the musician, unless that musician is full of himself. Then he has to examine his own motivations.

In all, it comes down to just examining every piece of music which could possibly used for liturgy - not by composer or writer, but by each individual work. Just because it’s in a hymnal or a collection of sacred or religious works, may not necessarily mean it is appropriate. Then you have to see how it can be rendered without it sounding too secular.
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Wow, no use in anyone else voicing an opinion here…obviously, you know it all!😛
 
peary said:
Wow, no use in anyone else voicing an opinion here…obviously, you know it all!😛
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Oh, gosh… No way! I definitely and absolutely do not. 😛 I enjoy many of these threads because I like the fact that I can read various opinions whether or not I agree with them. They make me think - helping me establish what, how and why I believe something, in which I will either have a deeper belief in what I initially came into the conversation, or will give me room for pause and to reevaluate what I believe, perhaps even changing or updating my opinions.

This particular subject is and has been a very interesting subject for me. It is something my husband, friends, colleagues and I discuss often. I’ve just been steeped in classical music studies since I was literally in nursery school and it’s always been a part of my life in both the secular and liturgical realms with the fortune of having wonderful mentors in both realms. There was absolutely no way for me to escape not knowing anything about this subject. And for me, it’s important to know and educate yourself as much as possible about what you love and hold close within your heart and soul, whether that is one’s faith, vocation, music, etc. There is always room to learn and discover more. My opinions on liturgical and sacred music are also ever evolving, although with certain core beliefs which has held true to me over the past few years. But anyway, I apologize if I posted too much on the thread. When I like a subject, I just get overly excited and eager to discuss. :o And, with a baby coming along, I most likely won’t have this kind of time to do these threads. 😛
 
Hi Sarabande!

As you responded to my post I re-read what I wrote and wanted to clear up my statements…I didn’t mean to sound unduly harsh! I am kind of a smarty-pants and it never seems to translate well in the written word :rolleyes:

Bach’s (or any other composer’s) masses and sacred music are gorgeous pieces and I think that if it lifts the listener’s ears, minds and hearts to God I am all for it. However, it was explained to me that they are more styled for performance than worship. 🤷

I am not taking a swipe at sopranos…I am one! I have been singing in choirs and have been involved in musical theater for the past 15 to 20 years (since I was about 10) and I am usually the one singing those descants…trust me, I LOVE the chance to dust off a high C when appropriate 😃

I was referring more to a theatrical/for your entertainment style that bothers me. If the choir is singing “On Eagle’s Wings”, it is inappropriate for anyone singing to haul off and improv in their upper register a la Mariah Carey just because they feel like it. If you are cantoring during mass and you start jazzing up a hymn, add in some fist pumping and high notes that aren’t written are you helping to vocally lead the parishioners in sung prayer or showboating? That’s all I was getting at…liturgical music just seems so different.

Congratulations to you and your (soon to be bigger) family by the way! My son is 20 months and my choir time is such a prayerful refuge for me…Like I said above, I love to sing and I am certainly not above hamming it up when I am performing on stage. When we sing during mass it’s competely different; my entire sound and approach changes. I suppose I just assumed that everyone shifted stylistically and I didn’t think about the singer’s intent…guess what happens when you assume 😉

Thanks again for sharing!
 
ShinyGirl said:
. . If you are cantoring during mass and you start jazzing up a hymn, add in some fist pumping and high notes that aren’t written are you helping to vocally lead the parishioners in sung prayer or showboating? . . .!
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There is a problem in that many churches fail to distinguish between cantor and song-leader. The terms tend to get used interchangeably.

As I understand it, a cantor is a solo role to be sung against the choir or congregational response, e.g. the cantor may sing the verses in the Responsorial Psalm while the choir and/or Congregation sings the response. A song leader induces the congregation to sing and helps them over the rough parts. They help the congregation get started on the hymn, and should drop to near inaudible if the song is going well. Just my :twocents: .
 
One of the most popular wedding songs is Bach’s Jesu, Joy of Man’s Desiring. There are also several hymns that Bach wrote which are sung by the congregation, the most notable one being A Mighty Fortress Is Our God. I have attended Masses where some of his chorales have been sung during Communion (in english, of course).

So, I don’t see the where or why of Bach’s music being prohibited in the Catholic Church. He also wrote music for Masses which, today,however, would not be appropriate given the Novus Ordo.

As long as the verses are doctrine-friendly or does not clash with Church teaching, the composer should have a place in the music of the Church.

I know, I know…he was Lutheran. 🤷
 
peary said:
I have attended Masses where some of his chorales have been sung during Communion (in english, of course).
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But they sound great in German, the language of JS Bach. Somehow the English just doesn’t cut it for me. But that’s me. I understand many Americans just have to have everything in English. 🤷
I know, I know…he was Lutheran. 🤷
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Yes, but a very pro-life Lutheran. He had 20 children which he had to feed. 🙂
 
ProVobis said:
But they sound great in German, the language of JS Bach. Somehow the English just doesn’t cut it for me. But that’s me. I understand many Americans just have to have everything in English. 🤷

Yes, but a very pro-life Lutheran. He had 20 children which he had to feed. 🙂
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Actually, most of them died.
 
peary said:
Actually, most of them died.
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Which was very common. Mozart had 6 and only two survived to adulthood. The majority of people would have many children, of which you were fortunate if at least half of them survived into adulthood. I believe only 9 of Bach’s children survived into adulthood. He also had two wives, since his first also preceded him in death - another common thing through the centuries. Many men had more than one wife.
 
If people are interested in sacred music and its use in Catholic liturgy, you should be sure to visit the CMAA website (if you haven’t already). It is full of good information and music resources, and there’s a forum to talk about this stuff.
 
With all of the stuff that is found in the missalettes in the pews of most Catholic churches, who could possibly complain about Bach? I remember hearing about someone complaining to Msgr. Ratzinger, the Holy Father’s brother, and a career church musician, that he was using Protestant music. His replay was something to this effect, " Which note is Protestant?"
 
Marysann said:
With all of the stuff that is found in the missalettes in the pews of most Catholic churches, who could possibly complain about Bach? I remember hearing about someone complaining to Msgr. Ratzinger, the Holy Father’s brother, and a career church musician, that he was using Protestant music. His reply was something to this effect, " Which note is Protestant?"
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He’s so right.
 
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