Bach and the Catholic Church

[nhylan]

You’re quite welcome. Actually P & F in G was strongly considered for our wedding postlude but the French School (Mulet–Carillon Sortie) won out. Face it, you can’t go wrong with either of the Bach. They just exude joy. Hard to explain to some people and not trying to be a snob.

Nah, not snobby at all. Bach is hard to listen to if your not used to it. I used to hate it when I was at conservatory. He’s not the easiest composer to get to know.

 

[1holycatholic]

My sincerest sympathies for your loss. Bach is beautiful for funerals and that is a particularly gorgeous piece.

Thank you.

 

[Petergee]

I remember up until sometime in the 20th century, the works of J.S. Bach and most likely other protestants were banned by the Catholic church. I can’t remember which pope changed all that.

There was no such ban. Don’t jump to the conclusion that the pope must have banned something because Catholics don’t usually do it. As I said, many Catholics before Vatican II had a historical/cultural prejudice against playing Bach in church.

 

[LilyM]

I remember we sung “Jesu, Joy of Man’s Desiring” quite often in Mass growing up and another Bach piece, but can’t remember the name now.

I likewise sang it in Mass in high school. I’m sure there is other stuff of his that I’ve heard played or sung.

Bear in mind Lutherans are known to refer to their liturgies as ‘Mass’, as do many high-church Anglicans as well. So in composing ‘Masses’, Bach wasn’t doing anything particularly odd for a Lutheran.

 

[GIR]

I’m not Catholic but I do sing quite often as a cantor at Masses and Catholic funerals and I have to say the music is quite bad most of the time. I would agree that I would love to do more Bach when I’m at Mass. This also leads to the problem though that there are many many organists at Catholic Churches that probably can’t play Bach because the music has been of such a “quality” the past several decades. In the greater Boston area, amongst organists I think its a general rule of thumb that the majority of good organists play in Episcopal Churches. Money has something to do with that definitely but I also think that Catholic music has a certain bad stigma amongst professionals. Would love to see these trends reversed. There is lots of good music by Catholic composers and obviously there is lots by protestant composers, particularly the German school.

Your assessment of modern catholic music is refreshing . Those of us who hang out at the Traditional Catholicism board are trying to fix that. I don’t know much about the nitty gritty of music theory, but I’ve read an article or two tearing apart modern catholic “folk” stuff. While I’d be uncomfortable with non-catholic music in a catholic church (even though we do it all the time) I’m sure bach’s music is vastly superior in both musical quality and doctrinal orthodoxy than the majority of happy clappy stuff out there today.

 

[OriginalJS]

I’m not Catholic but I do sing quite often as a cantor at Masses and Catholic funerals and I have to say the music is quite bad most of the time. I would agree that I would love to do more Bach when I’m at Mass. This also leads to the problem though that there are many many organists at Catholic Churches that probably can’t play Bach because the music has been of such a “quality” the past several decades. In the greater Boston area, amongst organists I think its a general rule of thumb that the majority of good organists play in Episcopal Churches. Money has something to do with that definitely but I also think that Catholic music has a certain bad stigma amongst professionals. Would love to see these trends reversed. There is lots of good music by Catholic composers and obviously there is lots by protestant composers, particularly the German school.

For whatever reasons, music seems to be discounted in Catholic churches where I have attended Masses. Many don’t have good organists (many just rely on mediocre pianists while the organ sits unused) and the choirs are too often “sing along with Mitch” types featuring unison singing. As for the religion of the composers and authors, a glance though any Catholic hymnal (Gather, for example) will show a reasonably knowledgeable person that a large number of the hymns were composed by well-known non-Catholics such as Charles Wesley.

The small, rural Catholic church we attend now has had trouble getting even a pianist and has finally had to engage a young Lutheran woman to play for Masses.

This is all very though provoking, and somewhat unsettling, as beautiful, complex, music is one of the great heritages of the Church.

 

[nhylan]

I’d be curious as to where you thought that the church went off the tracks in regard to music. I hear more Ave Verum Corpus in Episcopal Churches than I ever have in the Catholic Church. There are some great settings out there. It seems to me that individual parishes could easily fix the problem by setting aside some money to the programs. Hire a good organist (they aren’t cheap) and then hire a couple section leaders for each section. 2 Sopranos, 2, alto, 2 tenors, 2 basses or baritones. Boom wammy! Back to good music. I’d say you could even throw some Anglican Chant in there but baby steps perhaps!

For whatever reasons, music seems to be discounted in Catholic churches where I have attended Masses. Many don’t have good organists (many just rely on mediocre pianists while the organ sits unused) and the choirs are too often “sing along with Mitch” types featuring unison singing. As for the religion of the composers and authors, a glance though any Catholic hymnal (Gather, for example) will show a reasonably knowledgeable person that a large number of the hymns were composed by well-known non-Catholics such as Charles Wesley.

The small, rural Catholic church we attend now has had trouble getting even a pianist and has finally had to engage a young Lutheran woman to play for Masses.

This is all very though provoking, and somewhat unsettling, as beautiful, complex, music is one of the great heritages of the Church.

 

[elgar]

There was no such ban. Don’t jump to the conclusion that the pope must have banned something because Catholics don’t usually do it. As I said, many Catholics before Vatican II had a historical/cultural prejudice against playing Bach in church.

Somebody with a church history background help me out here. I remember distinctly hearing at an organ seminar 30-some years ago by a learned graduate student at the University here that the playing and singing of J.S. Bach was not allowed at the Vatican until that policy was changed during the 20th century. By all logic, after the Reformation, all Protestant music would have been disallowed–not?

I remember growing up Catholic and hearing from my Catholic organ teacher that there was a ban on “operatic” masses. Verdi comes to mind as a good example. The story goes that the French were very fond of their Saturday night entertainment at the opera house and came to expect the same style of performance on Sunday morning at mass. I can’t prove any of this with sources, just memories. Any help would be appreciated.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

Somebody with a church history background help me out here. I remember distinctly hearing at an organ seminar 30-some years ago by a learned graduate student at the University here that the playing and singing of J.S. Bach was not allowed at the Vatican until that policy was changed during the 20th century. By all logic, after the Reformation, all Protestant music would have been disallowed–not?

I remember growing up Catholic and hearing from my Catholic organ teacher that there was a ban on “operatic” masses. Verdi comes to mind as a good example. The story goes that the French were very fond of their Saturday night entertainment at the opera house and came to expect the same style of performance on Sunday morning at mass. I can’t prove any of this with sources, just memories. Any help would be appreciated.

I don’t know about the ban, but Verdi’s Requiem is very dramatic and operatic, and when I first listened to it, I thought it was a little over the top, after listening to Bach, Haydn and Mozart’s renditions of the Mass. It really does sound more like an opera than religious music - but hey it’s all good!

 

[Petergee]

Somebody with a church history background help me out here. I remember distinctly hearing at an organ seminar 30-some years ago by a learned graduate student at the University here that the playing and singing of J.S. Bach was not allowed at the Vatican until that policy was changed during the 20th century. By all logic, after the Reformation, all Protestant music would have been disallowed–not?

Yes, there may well have been a policy not to play Bach or other porotestant composers** at the Vatican** based on the very natural idea that the central great basilicas of the Catholic Church should feature the best work of Catholic composers. But this is a very different thing from their works being “banned by the Catholic Church”. Which they were not.

If I went to the great Lutheran cathedrals of Germany, I wouldn’t expect to hear Palestrina. But I’m sure the Lutheran church doesn’t “ban” all music by Catholic composers from ever being played in any Lutheran church.

I remember growing up Catholic and hearing from my Catholic organ teacher that there was a ban on “operatic” masses. Verdi comes to mind as a good example. The story goes that the French were very fond of their Saturday night entertainment at the opera house and came to expect the same style of performance on Sunday morning at mass. I can’t prove any of this with sources, just memories. Any help would be appreciated.

Operas in those days were like rock/pop music today - mass popular entertainment. The Church then, as it does still today, calls for sacred liturgical music to be distinct in form from those forms used as popular entertainments. Unfortunately many parishes disregard this rule.