Bad History...Help

[thedavid123]

I am a devout Catholic Chrtistian and have been discussing my faith with someone i would describe as a “Catholic Hater” he tells me he tries to convert people away from the faith to save them from hell. My protestant friend who is constantly attacking me about my faith gave me this website: christian-history.org and claims that this website tells the true history of the church and proves Catholics wrong. I don’t know enough about church history to point out where the problems in this sites account of history are and i was hoping yall could help me. Thanks so much!

 

[Cyklist]

It’s difficult to find good Early Church History books. For example Logos has basically none, only a bit of backgrounds and I don’t know whether I need to buy any of those either.

One good printed matter is: Paul Johnson (1976). A History of Christianity. Published by: Weidenfeld and Nicolson. I have it as hardback and have read the introduction and the chapter on Early Church History, I think it was sometime in the Spring 2012.

I don’t know enough about church history to point out where the problems in this sites account of history are and i was hoping yall could help me.

 

[Polycarp1]

I am a devout Catholic Chrtistian and have been discussing my faith with someone i would describe as a “Catholic Hater” he tells me he tries to convert people away from the faith to save them from hell. My protestant friend who is constantly attacking me about my faith gave me this website: christian-history.org and claims that this website tells the true history of the church and proves Catholics wrong. I don’t know enough about church history to point out where the problems in this sites account of history are and i was hoping yall could help me. Thanks so much!

Ronald Knox’s The Belief of Catholics

 

[Fidelis]

Nobody on this site would have the time to go through your friend’s site and refute every point on it. And you’re under no obligation to do so either. If your friend wants to have a reasonable discussion, ask him to pick one topic or historical issue and learn enough about it to refute his misconceptions. Don’t let him deluge you with a bunch of out of context half-truths in order to overwhelm you.

In the meantime, get a good general background in Church history so you can increase your knowledge base. There’s no easy way or sound-bites to learn it enough to discuss it intelligently; you’re going to have the build that knowledge little by little over time.

Here are some resources that should help you to that end:

**Catholicism and Fundamentalism, by Karl Keating

Where We Got The Bible, by Henry Graham

How The Catholic Church Built Western Civilization, by Thomas Woods

Triumph: The Power and the Glory of the Catholic Church, by HW Crocker

Pope Fiction, by Patrick Madrid

How the Reformation Happened, by Hillaire Belloc**

Others might have more suggestions. The important things are:

[1] Choose your topic, learn it, and argue it. Be in control of the discussion.

[2] Start gaining a general knowledge. Today.

 

[TimothyH]

I am a devout Catholic Chrtistian and have been discussing my faith with someone i would describe as a “Catholic Hater” he tells me he tries to convert people away from the faith to save them from hell. My protestant friend who is constantly attacking me about my faith gave me this website: christian-history.org and claims that this website tells the true history of the church and proves Catholics wrong. I don’t know enough about church history to point out where the problems in this sites account of history are and i was hoping yall could help me. Thanks so much!

A friend would not attack you for your faith. They are not your friend. Christian gentlemen do not attack each other for their faith.

You need different friends.

-Tim-

 

[JRKH]

A friend would not attack you for your faith. They are not your friend. Christian gentlemen do not attack each other for their faith.

You need different friends.

-Tim-

Agree - but since this “friend” obviously does not consider Catholics to be Christians…he is not attacking, he is “evangelizing”… (sarcasm alert…)

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

I agree with Fidelis that it is pointless for us to try to refute things on that site.
Your better option, since he does not believe you are Christian, is to talk about beliefs rather than history.

Ask him what are the essential things that define a Christian. Tell him to be very specific - but to only include those things that are essential.
Ask him to write them down for you so that you can both be clear.

Then take his list and go to official Church documents to show that we believe these same things.
The Catechism is a great place to start…If you don’t have a hard copy - get one so that you can show him in it - and explore the various scriptural references that you will find there as well.
The link above has a search engine at the bottom of the page that will help you look up specific points.

After you have found the various points in official Catholic teaching to demonstrate that we believe the things that he himself has stated as essential - show them to him.
Then ask him how he can say that Catholics are not Christians? This will of course illicit another list of things…
Again - get him to write them down…being specific…
Now take this list and look up the answers you need.

As others have pointed out, there are tracts here as CA - there are books on the market - there are great apologists here to help answer the questions etc. So again you will have no problem giving answers to your friend.

Little by little - if he IS your friend - he will start to see that your beliefs are not simply based on some half baked ideas or deep theological errors but on sound and logical doctrine.

Later - once he realizes that Catholics actually ARE Christians with a solid theological lineage and that many of the things he has been told about Catholics were wrong - THEN you and he can begin to do a research into the true history of the Church…If you both still want to.

Of course if he remains intransigent - well best you find out now…

Peace
James

P.S. Welcome to the forums…

 

[COPLAND_3]

Fidelis made a wonderful post! I’m no historian by any means so I can’t offer much. But I do recommend reading the Church Fathers and learning about who they were and what they wrote. Most Protestants know little about them. It don’t take long to realize when you read the Church Fathers that they were not Southern Baptists or Methodists, but they were Catholics!

 

[De_Maria]

Nobody on this site would have the time to go through your friend’s site and refute every point on it…

David, I second Fidelis’ advice. However, I think we can do a bit more to help you than to simply say, “get some books and do it yourself.”

Here’s what you do. Go back to your friend and say,

“Hey, I started going through that website and I’m having trouble with some of that stuff. Can you help me to understand it?”

Then start with this one. On the first page it says that the Apostles both did and did not keep the Sabbath.

Yet, on the next page it says that they did not keep the Sabbath at all:

*However, there are some clear, objective issues I can settle for you, and one of them is whether the churches the apostles started kept the Sabbath.

The answer is no, they did not keep the Sabbath. Despite the fact that several whole books have been written arguing that they did, it is very clear they did not.*

And then you jump to Ignatius and Irenaeus? But they aren’t Apostles.

Also, you posted this verse:
Let no one judge you concerning food or drink, or in regard to a feast, new moon, or Sabbaths, which are a shadow of coming things, but the body belongs to Christ.
–Paul the Apostle, Colossians 2:16-17, c. A.D. 60

Considering the context of the times, the Jews were persecuting the Christians, St. Paul is telling the new Christians that they are not subject to the feasts, moons, or Sabbaths of the Jews.

The “shadow of things to come” is a reference to the Old Testament. In another place in Scripture, St. Paul says:

Hebrews 10:1
For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

And that is an obvious reference to the ordinances of the Old Testament which Jesus obliterated, nailing them to the Cross:

Colossians 2:14
Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

When he gives you an answer, simply say, “ok, let me think on that a bit. I’ll get back to you.”​

And come back here with the question. We can help you debunk that website the way a man eats an elephant. One bite at a time.

I hope that helps.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

Be not afraid. We can tackle it one bite at a time. Many hands make work light. Help a brother out. Tackle one question a week. Bring it here first for our (name removed by moderator)ut. Then take it back to your “friend” for his (name removed by moderator)ut. Stick to your guns. Don’t get swamped with a scattergun of objections. If he changes the subject, change it back. Or, say, “let me write that down. We can get into it in detail later.”

God is in the details my friend. Bring on the questions!

Sincerely,

De Maria