Baltimore Catechism - Headship

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Matt14:
Where do we find the command by Jesus that there would be an office of pope with successors?
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I made no such claim, nor do I find such a command necessary. Jesus did not command the Apostles to replace Judas, yet they knew the office must be filled. Jesus gave Peter the keys which is symbolic of his authority to rule as Vicar.
 
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Matt14:
Where do we find the command by Jesus that there would be an office of pope with successors?
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Your question is more about Apostolic Succession than about the Pope. The office of Pope, based on scriptural warrant, which I will post below, was consolidated as a result of particular needs. The Pope is a bishop. He is a central figure among other bishops, but his office is always that of a bishop.

John 20:19-23, shows Jesus breathing on the 10 and committing to them Holy Spirit with the power to forgive sins. Since forgiveness of sins is what Calvary was all about, Jesus commits the fruit of Calvary in a particular way to the Apostles. The Catholic view is that this had to be a transmissible charism in order for the Church to carry out its mission.

Petrine primacy rests on these scriptures:

The word “Pope” comes later. It is an affectionate term for “father” because the Church is a family. Although the word “Pope” comes later, the central place of Peter among the Apostles is solidly scriptural.

Start here: catholic.com/library/church_papacy.asp

The relevant Scriptures are Mt. 16:13-19

Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do men say that the Son of man is?” And they said, “Some say John the Baptist, others say Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

**Luke 21:31-32 **

“Simon, Simon, behold, Satan demanded to have you [Greek: you all], that he might sift you like wheat, but I have prayed for you [Greek: you singular = Simon] that your faith may not fail; and when you have turned again, strengthen your brethren.”

**John 21:15-19 **

When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord; you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Feed my lambs.” A second time he said to him, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord; you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Tend my sheep.” He said to him the third time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” Peter was grieved because he said to him the third time, “Do you love me?” And he said to him, “Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you.” Jesus said to him, “Feed my sheep. Truly, truly, I say to you, when you were young, you girded yourself and walked where you would; but when you are old, you will stretch out your hands, and another will gird you and carry you where you do not wish to go.” (This he said to show by what death he was to glorify God.) And after this he said to him, “Follow me.”

For the authority to pass the Apostolic commission down to successors:

Acts 1:15-26

In those days Peter stood up among the brethren (the company of persons was in all about a hundred and twenty), and said, “Brethren, the scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke beforehand by the mouth of David, concerning Judas who was guide to those who arrested Jesus. . . . For it is written in the book of Psalms, ‘Let his habitation become desolate, and let there be no one to live in it’; and ‘His office let another take.’ So one of the men who have accompanied us during all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, beginning from the baptism of John until the day when he was taken up from us – one of these men must become with us a witness to his resurrection.” And they put forward two, Joseph called Barsabbas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias. . . . And they cast lots for them, and the lot fell on Matthi’as; and he was enrolled with the eleven apostles.
 
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RyanL:
Good to know someone reads my posts…👍😉

God Bless,
RyanL
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Oh, I read it, just haven’t had time to respond to such a long post. Might call for it’s own thread.

I’m so busy responding I feel like I’m running around with britches on fire.

I’ve got to call it a weekend. Lord willing, we’ll take this back up Monday. 🙂

Have a great weekend, all.

in Christ,

Matt
 
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Matt14:
Oh, I read it, just haven’t had time to respond to such a long post. Might call for it’s own thread.

I’m so busy responding I feel like I’m running around with britches on fire.

I’ve got to call it a weekend. Lord willing, we’ll take this back up Monday. 🙂

Have a great weekend, all.

in Christ,

Matt
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You, too, Matt. You’ve got yourself into a LOT of issues here; taking a break is good.

Pray for us on Sunday, and we’ll do the same for you!
 
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Matt14:
While reading the Baltimore Catechism here I noticed the following three statements:

Now, #116 I can back up with scripture:

Col 1:18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.

cf. Eph. 1:22 and 5:23.

#117 says though that the pope is the “visible” head of the church. Now, I can’t find verification for this in scripture, the idea of “two heads, one visible, the other invisible.”

#118 says this is so because the pope is the successor of Peter.

Here’s the difficulty I have agreeing with this:

The church is the body of Christ, right?

And correct me if I’m wrong, but catholicism sees the body of Christ as being visible.

Under this idea, we have a visible body (the RCC), a visible head (the pope), and a second invisible head (Jesus Christ).

Does the analogy of “the body of Christ” hold up with two heads for one body?
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Th Bishop of Rome has been looked upon as the head of the universal Church from apostolic times. The Catholic Church is the only church who can lawfully trace back in an unbroken line to the apostles, and to the first pope, Peter.

And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. (Matthew 16:18)

*And I will give to you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever you shall bind on earth shall be bound also in heaven. And whatsoever you shall loose on earth, it shall be loosed in heaven. * (Matthew 16:19 )
 
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Matt14:
But neither does any other apostolic writer refer to Peter as head of anything. Nor do they give him any titles, or special respect over others. In fact, we can see in the Jerusalem council in Acts 15 it appears that James is the one directing things, which seems amiss if Peter had special papal authority.
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A few things to consider: one is that Peter is called “the first” Apostle (Matt 10:2). Now, Peter was not the first apostle to be chosen, for Andrew, his brother, was chosen before him. So the term “the first” must have another meaning. Does it mean that Peter was the first in rank? The Greek would seek to indicate this, for the Greek word “protos” does not merely mean first in order, but “chief”, “foremost”, or “best” (see strongs 4413). The Greek word primus is translated into Latin as “Primus”, from which we get the word “Primacy”. So that verse could very well be translated to say that Peter holds the Primacy over the other apostles.

Also consider that when the apostels are listed, Peter is always first in the list. Although the other apostles are not always in the same order, the biblical writer (who was inspired by God) was always careful to place Peter’s name first in the list, and Judas’ name last.

Another point is that Peter’s name is mentioned more than all of the other apostles combined. And often when the apostles are mentioned as a group, they are referred to as Peter and the others: "Tell his disciples, and Peter (St. Mark 16). “Peter standing up, with the eleven” (Acts. 2). “And Simon, and they who were with him…” (St. Mark 1). Notice, the others are referred to as a group, but Peter is mentioned by name.

We also know that when it came time to pay taxes, Jesus paid the taxes for both Himself and Peter, but not the other apostles. And it was to St. Peter only that Jesus gave the command to “confirm the brethren” (Luke 22:32). And Jesus gave Peter alone the command to “feed My lambs, feed by sheep” (John 21:17).

And don’t forget that Jesus said to Peter alone: “I will give unto you [single person singular] the keys to the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever you shall bind on earth shall be bound also in heaven, and whatsoever you shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven” (Mt 16:20). It was to Peter alone that Jesus gave this power.

One last point is that Jesus conveyed upon Peter a name that properly belongs to God Himself. Jesus, who is the Ultimate head of the Church, is referred to in Scripture as a Rock. In fact, the Hebrew word “tsur”, which is translated God in the Old Testament, also has the meaning “rock”. Some versions of the Bible translate the Hebrew word tsur as “rock” and some (in the same passage) translate it as “God”. For example, the King James version of the Bible translates the Hebrew word tsur as follows:

“As for God, his way is perfect: the word of the Lord is tried. He is a buckler to all those that trust in him. For who is God save the Lord, or who is a rock (Tsur) save our God?” (Psalm 18).

The Douay-Rheims version of the Bible translates the same passage as follows:

“As for my God, his way is undefiled: the words of the Lord are fire tried: he is the protector of all that trust in Him. For who is God but the Lord? or who is God (Tsur) but our God?” (Psalm 18:31-32).

As I states above, the name rock properly belongs to God, for He is truly our unmovable rock: “The Lord is my rock (tsur) and my fortress” (Psalm 18:2); “Unto thee will I cry, O Lord, my rock (tsur) (ibid. 28:1); I will say unto God, my rock (tsur) (ibid. 42:9); Truly my soul waiteth upon God: from Him cometh my salvation. He only is my rock (tsur) and my salvation…My soul, wait thou only upon God … my rock (tsur) and my salvation… He is my rock(tsur) …” (ibid 62:2,6,7); “and they remembered that God was their rock (tsur)” (ibid. 78:35).

continue…
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continuation of previous post

Yet Our Lord gave this same name rock, which properly belongs to Himself, to St. Peter. "And Jesus looking upon him, said: Thou are Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is interpreted Peter (rock) (John 1:42). Is it merely a coincidence that Jesus, who is called a Rock (1Cor. 10:4, 1Peter 2:8, Rom. 9:33), gave Simon the name Rock (John 1:42, Mt 16:18). I think not.

There is one person in the Old Testament who is referred to by this name rock (tsur), and it is no less a figure than Father Abraham. As you know, the Old Testament has many “types” and “images” of New Testament realities. The Paschal Lamb, for example, that was sacrificed by the Jews during Passover foreshadowed Our Lord who was sacrificed for us on Mt. Calvary during Passover. The Old Testament Lamb could not take away sins, but rather pointed to the One who would. That is why, when John the Baptism saw our Lord, he declared “behold the Lamb of God, the one who taketh away the sins of the world”. There are countless other examples of the Old Testament foreshadowing the New Testament. We will look at one other.

In the Old Testament, God is often referred to as “The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob”. This threefold name is an Old Testament “image” of the Blessed Trinity. This image becomes clear when we consider that Father Abraham (who represents God the Father) led his son Isaac up Mt. Moria to be sacrificed to God. Isaac, his son (who represents Jesus) carried the wood up the Mountain, just as Our Lord carried the wood of the cross up Mt. Calvary. Mt. Moria was later re-named Calvary, and is the same mountain upon which Our Lord was crucified. Jacob, the third person, represents the Holy Ghost who is the third person of the Blessed Trinity. This explains why the New Testament Church - whose members have become “a temple of the Holy Ghost” (1 Cor. 6:16) - is called in Scripture “the house of Jacob” (Luke 1), for Jacob represents the Holy Ghost who dwells within the Church. So we can see that “the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob” was an image of the Blessed Trinity, which explains why God was called by that triune name.

Now, Father Abraham, who was a “type” of God the Father, is called in scripture by the same name rock, which was also given to St. Peter in the New Testament. “Look unto the rock (tsur) whence you are hewn … look unto Abraham your Father” (Isaias 51:1-2).

This same name - rock - which properly belongs to God, was attributed (in passing) to Abraham, because he was the Father of the Old Testament and an Old Testiment “image” of God the Father. But this name rock, or Peter (which properly belongs to God), was not only attributed to St. Peter in passing, as it was withto Father Abraham; but was given to Simon as the name he would be called by. What is the significance of this?

When God changes a name on someone, the name conveys a meaning that describes the person. Since Abraham was a type of God the Father and Father of the Jewish race, God changed his name from Abram, to Abraham. The name Abraham eans “father of a multitude”. In re-naming Abram, Abraham, God designated him as the Father of the Jewish people. So likewise when Our Lord renamed Simon Peter, which means rock, He designated him as the visible representative of Himself, Who is the true rock. And at the same that He Peter’s name, Our Lord conveyed upon him His own authority upon him when He declared: “I will give unto you the keys to the kingdom of heaven [which properly belong to Me] and whatever you shall bind upon earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you shall loose upon earth shall be loosed in heaven” (Mt 16:20).

We can see that the name rock (Peter), which Jesus gave to Simon, is a very important name in the Bible, for it is a name that properly belongs to God Himself. In renaming Simon Peter, Our Lord changed His name to a name that belongs to God!

That fits in very nicely with the Catholic teaching that the Pope is the visible representitive of our Lord, who is the invisible head of the Church.
 
USMC – Posts 29 & 30. Nice work. Is it your own? If not, can you please point us to the source? If it is yours, may I cite you, and if so, how?
 
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mercygate:
USMC – Posts 29 & 30. Nice work. Is it your own? If not, can you please point us to the source? If it is yours, may I cite you, and if so, how?
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That is all my work. Feel free to use it as your own.
 
USMC…thank you for that post…I learned from it…I had never noticed that Peter was mentioned first before.

Teresa
 
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USMC:
That is all my work. Feel free to use it as your own.
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👍 Excellent! But I will certainly not use it as my own. Can you PM me so that I can give appropriate credit? If you are diffident about that, I will cite CA Forums and this thread.:clapping:

One question – in the first paragraph you say the Greek word primus is translated into Latin as primus . . . ??? Do you mean protos?
 
mercygate said:
👍 Excellent! But I will certainly not use it as my own. Can you PM me so that I can give appropriate credit? If you are diffident about that, I will cite CA Forums and this thread.:clapping:

One question – in the first paragraph you say the Greek word primus is translated into Latin as primus . . . ??? Do you mean protos?
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Yes, that is what I meant. I re-read what I wrote and notice there are a few other typos as well. Too late to make corrections.
 
RE: Matt 14 # 1
That you just discovered those facts,is surprising. That you think any teaching of the church requires scriptural verification is also surprsing.
 
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Matt14:
While reading the Baltimore Catechism here I noticed the following three statements:

Here’s the difficulty I have agreeing with this:

The church is the body of Christ, right?

And correct me if I’m wrong, but catholicism sees the body of Christ as being visible.

Under this idea, we have a visible body (the RCC), a visible head (the pope), and a second invisible head (Jesus Christ).

Does the analogy of “the body of Christ” hold up with two heads for one body?
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first… the Church is the mystical Body of Christ. The Pope, too, is a member of this same body. Just as Christ appointed Peter to be leader of the Church, so too, the Pope is the same leader – yet, he is still a member, just like each one of us. There is ONE head of the Church – Christ. the Pope is Christ’s representative to heads, leads, guides, teaches the Church the TRUTH which Christ is the fullness of.
 
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USMC:
continuation of previous post

Yet Our Lord gave this same name rock, which properly belongs to Himself, to St. Peter. "And Jesus looking upon him, said: Thou are Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is interpreted Peter (rock) (John 1:42). Is it merely a coincidence that Jesus, who is called a Rock (1Cor. 10:4, 1Peter 2:8, Rom. 9:33), gave Simon the name Rock (John 1:42, Mt 16:18). I think not.

There is one person in the Old Testament who is referred to by this name rock (tsur), and it is no less a figure than Father Abraham. As you know, the Old Testament has many “types” and “images” of New Testament realities. The Paschal Lamb, for example, that was sacrificed by the Jews during Passover foreshadowed Our Lord who was sacrificed for us on Mt. Calvary during Passover. The Old Testament Lamb could not take away sins, but rather pointed to the One who would. That is why, when John the Baptism saw our Lord, he declared “behold the Lamb of God, the one who taketh away the sins of the world”. There are countless other examples of the Old Testament foreshadowing the New Testament. We will look at one other.

In the Old Testament, God is often referred to as “The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob”. This threefold name is an Old Testament “image” of the Blessed Trinity. This image becomes clear when we consider that Father Abraham (who represents God the Father) led his son Isaac up Mt. Moria to be sacrificed to God. Isaac, his son (who represents Jesus) carried the wood up the Mountain, just as Our Lord carried the wood of the cross up Mt. Calvary. Mt. Moria was later re-named Calvary, and is the same mountain upon which Our Lord was crucified. Jacob, the third person, represents the Holy Ghost who is the third person of the Blessed Trinity. This explains why the New Testament Church - whose members have become “a temple of the Holy Ghost” (1 Cor. 6:16) - is called in Scripture “the house of Jacob” (Luke 1), for Jacob represents the Holy Ghost who dwells within the Church. So we can see that “the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob” was an image of the Blessed Trinity, which explains why God was called by that triune name.

Now, Father Abraham, who was a “type” of God the Father, is called in scripture by the same name rock, which was also given to St. Peter in the New Testament. “Look unto the rock (tsur) whence you are hewn … look unto Abraham your Father” (Isaias 51:1-2).

This same name - rock - which properly belongs to God, was attributed (in passing) to Abraham, because he was the Father of the Old Testament and an Old Testiment “image” of God the Father. But this name rock, or Peter (which properly belongs to God), was not only attributed to St. Peter in passing, as it was withto Father Abraham; but was given to Simon as the name he would be called by. What is the significance of this?

When God changes a name on someone, the name conveys a meaning that describes the person. Since Abraham was a type of God the Father and Father of the Jewish race, God changed his name from Abram, to Abraham. The name Abraham eans “father of a multitude”. In re-naming Abram, Abraham, God designated him as the Father of the Jewish people. So likewise when Our Lord renamed Simon Peter, which means rock, He designated him as the visible representative of Himself, Who is the true rock. And at the same that He Peter’s name, Our Lord conveyed upon him His own authority upon him when He declared: “I will give unto you the keys to the kingdom of heaven [which properly belong to Me] and whatever you shall bind upon earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you shall loose upon earth shall be loosed in heaven” (Mt 16:20).

We can see that the name rock (Peter), which Jesus gave to Simon, is a very important name in the Bible, for it is a name that properly belongs to God Himself. In renaming Simon Peter, Our Lord changed His name to a name that belongs to God!

That fits in very nicely with the Catholic teaching that the Pope is the visible representitive of our Lord, who is the invisible head of the Church.
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USMC, I am just now getting back to this thread. I appreciate your good and thoughtful post, and I assure you that I will consider it and respond in the same manner. 🙂

Please forgive me, all. I am in the middle of mid-terms, and I work full time and minister when I’m not working, so I’m struggling to allocate time for everything. But, Lord willing, I’ll be back to continue this thread.

Thanks, and God bless you all.
 
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