Baptism and original sin

[mabibleteacher]

Adam and Eve were created without the predisposition to concupiscence. . .yet, they sinned.

So while Mary was, in her Immaculate Conception, without the predisposition to concupiscence, she still could have sinned. . .just as Adam and Eve did. However, she chose to obey God in all things. . .as Eve likewise could have, and should have, done. As we ourselves, though with a ‘prediliction’ to sin can, and should, do, even if we have previously been guilty of (and repented for) all our past sins. . .

The idea that God should create us ‘like Mary’ to guarantee that we won’t sin is faulty in its assumption both that Mary ‘could not sin’ and that God is somehow ‘punishing us unfairly’ by not ‘giving us’ what He gave the Blessed Mother.

Hmm…I’m a bit confused on that idea about Mary.

The church teaches that all mankind are a descendents of Adam, correct? The church also teaches that all descendents of Adam bear the stain of his original sin (Romans 5:12) and therefore, through baptism need to be purified of it, correct? The church also teaches that because of Adam’s original sin, we have a sinful nature that makes us sin, correct?

Mary, since she was human, must be a descendent of Adam, correct?
Therefore she must have inherited the guilt of Adam’s original sin and the sinful nature.
Since the bible says that " …for All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God…" (Romans 3:23), then Mary must have sinned. Mary was considered “pure” because she was not married and had not had sex, not because she never sinned. She must have sinned.

Additionally, since baptism was not done at that time, since it did not occur until John the Baptist came around (who was born at the same time as Jesus) she could not have been purfied from that original sin.

 

[phil8888]

Hmm…I’m a bit confused on that idea about Mary.

The church teaches that all mankind are a descendents of Adam, correct? The church also teaches that all descendents of Adam bear the stain of his original sin (Romans 5:12) and therefore, through baptism need to be purified of it, correct? The church also teaches that because of Adam’s original sin, we have a sinful nature that makes us sin, correct?

Mary, since she was human, must be a descendent of Adam, correct?
Therefore she must have inherited the guilt of Adam’s original sin and the sinful nature.
Since the bible says that " …for All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God…" (Romans 3:23), then Mary must have sinned. Mary was considered “pure” because she was not married and had not had sex, not because she never sinned. She must have sinned.

Additionally, since baptism was not done at that time, since it did not occur until John the Baptist came around (who was born at the same time as Jesus) she could not have been purfied from that original sin.

Christ’s sacrifice is eternal. So he saved Mary from any stain of original sin from her conception. but this was done because of his life death and resurrection. the analogy people use is that we are in a pit and Christ rescues us from it. In the case of Mary, he covered the pit so she wouldn’t fall in in the first place. But she is still cleansed from original sin because of what Jesus did.

 

[Joe_5859]

Hmm…I’m a bit confused on that idea about Mary.

The church teaches that all mankind are a descendents of Adam, correct? The church also teaches that all descendents of Adam bear the stain of his original sin (Romans 5:12) and therefore, through baptism need to be purified of it, correct? The church also teaches that because of Adam’s original sin, we have a sinful nature that makes us sin, correct?

Mary, since she was human, must be a descendent of Adam, correct?
Therefore she must have inherited the guilt of Adam’s original sin and the sinful nature.
Since the bible says that " …for All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God…" (Romans 3:23), then Mary must have sinned. Mary was considered “pure” because she was not married and had not had sex, not because she never sinned. She must have sinned.

Additionally, since baptism was not done at that time, since it did not occur until John the Baptist came around (who was born at the same time as Jesus) she could not have been purfied from that original sin.

Welcome to CAF!

You may want to do a search of the site for this topic. This has been discussed ad nauseum in other threads.

Also, this tract from Catholic Answers addresses the “All have sinned” verse:

Immaculate Conception and Assumption

 

[mabibleteacher]

Christ’s sacrifice is eternal. So he saved Mary from any stain of original sin from her conception. but this was done because of his life death and resurrection. the analogy people use is that we are in a pit and Christ rescues us from it. In the case of Mary, he covered the pit so she wouldn’t fall in in the first place. But she is still cleansed from original sin because of what Jesus did.

Isn’t that putting the cart before the horse? How could the sacrifice of Jesus cleanse Mary from her stain of original sin if she conceived Him before His sacrifice.
And also, where is the bible does it say anything about it being necessary for her to be “cleansed” of anything?
The whole point of the miracle of Jesus birth was that Mary got pregnant without having sex because God placed Jesus in her. If she had been a married woman or a woman who had already had sex, then there would be doubts as to the paternity of Jesus. But since she was a virgin and unmarried, there could be no doubt that a miracle had occured.
Her cleansing of original sin or not has nothing to do with anything.
We are all free of the guilt of all sin because of Jesus’s sacrifice. The only sin that is not forgiven is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. See Matthew 12:30-32

 

[jkiernan56]

Isn’t that putting the cart before the horse? How could the sacrifice of Jesus cleanse Mary from her stain of original sin if she conceived Him before His sacrifice.

Every moment of human history and existence is eternally NOW to God.The act of Christ’s sacrifice is eternally NOW to God. The immaculate conception of Mary is eternally NOW to God. This moment of me writing this sentence is eternally NOW to God. Every moment of the rest of your existence and mine is eternally NOW to God.

I think you get the point. God does not exist or live in time. He encompasses all of time. He is eternally present as if it were NOW to God in each and every moment of human history (past, present, and future to us). There is no past, present, and future for God.

The merits of Christ’s death on the cross were given to Mary at her conception to preserve her from the stain of original sin including concupiscence. Why? Because of WHO she was to conceive and give birth to. Mary was saved by Christ just like you and I are. But WHEN Mary was saved is different than WHEN you and I are saved.

I hope that helps.

 

[mabibleteacher]

Every moment of human history and existence is eternally NOW to God.The act of Christ’s sacrifice is eternally NOW to God. The immaculate conception of Mary is eternally NOW to God. This moment of me writing this sentence is eternally NOW to God. Every moment of the rest of your existence and mine is eternally NOW to God.

I think you get the point. God does not exist or live in time. He encompasses all of time. He is eternally present as if it were NOW to God in each and every moment of human history (past, present, and future to us). There is no past, present, and future for God.

The merits of Christ’s death on the cross were given to Mary at her conception to preserve her from the stain of original sin including concupiscence. Why? Because of WHO she was to conceive and give birth to. Mary was saved by Christ just like you and I are. But WHEN Mary was saved is different than WHEN you and I are saved.

I hope that helps.

I agree with the fact that God is not confined to time and space.

Where in the Bible does it say that Mary’s salvation is different from ours? I don’t recall any scripture that even talks about Mary’s salvation at all. So where does this information come from?

 

[Duong_Nguyen]

I agree with the fact that God is not confined to time and space.

Where in the Bible does it say that Mary’s salvation is different from ours? I don’t recall any scripture that even talks about Mary’s salvation at all. So where does this information come from?

You are basically asking about the Immaculate Conception.
Here is the link to the argument. The Assumption is in it too if you wanted to learn about that.

catholic.com/library/Immaculate_Conception_and_Assum.asp

 

[mabibleteacher]

You are basically asking about the Immaculate Conception.
Here is the link to the argument. The Assumption is in it too if you wanted to learn about that.

Thanks! I will check it out! I’m learning much today

 

[phil8888]

When discussing the Immaculate Conception, an implicit reference may be found in the angel’s greeting to Mary. The angel Gabriel said, “Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you” (Luke 1:28). The phrase “full of grace” is a translation of the Greek word kecharitomene. It therefore expresses a characteristic quality of Mary.

The traditional translation, “full of grace,” is better than the one found in many recent versions of the New Testament, which give something along the lines of “highly favored daughter.” Mary was indeed a highly favored daughter of God, but the Greek implies more than that (and it never mentions the word for “daughter”). The grace given to Mary is at once permanent and of a unique kind. Kecharitomene is a perfect passive participle of charitoo, meaning “to fill or endow with grace.” Since this term is in the perfect tense, it indicates that Mary was graced in the past but with continuing effects in the present. So, the grace Mary enjoyed was not a result of the angel’s visit. In fact, Catholics hold, it extended over the whole of her life, from conception onward. She was in a state of sanctifying grace from the first moment of her existence.

 

[jkiernan56]

When discussing the Immaculate Conception, an implicit reference may be found in the angel’s greeting to Mary. The angel Gabriel said, “Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you” (Luke 1:28). The phrase “full of grace” is a translation of the Greek word kecharitomene. It therefore expresses a characteristic quality of Mary.

The traditional translation, “full of grace,” is better than the one found in many recent versions of the New Testament, which give something along the lines of “highly favored daughter.” Mary was indeed a highly favored daughter of God, but the Greek implies more than that (and it never mentions the word for “daughter”). The grace given to Mary is at once permanent and of a unique kind. Kecharitomene is a perfect passive participle of charitoo, meaning “to fill or endow with grace.” Since this term is in the perfect tense, it indicates that Mary was graced in the past but with continuing effects in the present. So, the grace Mary enjoyed was not a result of the angel’s visit. In fact, Catholics hold, it extended over the whole of her life, from conception onward. She was in a state of sanctifying grace from the first moment of her existence.

Wow, thank you very much for that … that is so beautiful. Can you imagine how beautiful Mary must be to God that He chose her to be the human mother of His Divine Son? It is hard to fathom … what God must see in Mary … who is only a mirror of Christ. What He sees and loves in Mary is what He has always seen and loved in Christ.

I don’t know what it is, but there is also something very beautiful in each one of us that God would want us to become an image of Christ in each of our own unique way. Can you imagine the beautiful quilt that God is making (and I use that in a figurative sense) … with Mary and all the saints? What a beautiful Bride that must be to Christ and a gift of the Son to the Father.

 

[mabibleteacher]

When discussing the Immaculate Conception, an implicit reference may be found in the angel’s greeting to Mary. The angel Gabriel said, “Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you” (Luke 1:28). The phrase “full of grace” is a translation of the Greek word kecharitomene. It therefore expresses a characteristic quality of Mary.

The traditional translation, “full of grace,” is better than the one found in many recent versions of the New Testament, which give something along the lines of “highly favored daughter.” Mary was indeed a highly favored daughter of God, but the Greek implies more than that (and it never mentions the word for “daughter”). The grace given to Mary is at once permanent and of a unique kind. Kecharitomene is a perfect passive participle of charitoo, meaning “to fill or endow with grace.” Since this term is in the perfect tense, it indicates that Mary was graced in the past but with continuing effects in the present. So, the grace Mary enjoyed was not a result of the angel’s visit. In fact, Catholics hold, it extended over the whole of her life, from conception onward. She was in a state of sanctifying grace from the first moment of her existence.

but what does grace, in any translation, have to do with forgiveness of sin?

 

[CatsAndDogs]

but what does grace, in any translation, have to do with forgiveness of sin?

If one is full of grace, one has no room for sin.

But then, that’s WAY too “literal” for the sola scriptura folks.

:shamrock2:

 

[jkiernan56]

but what does grace, in any translation, have to do with forgiveness of sin?

Forgiveness is a free gift from God, not something you deserve or merit. I think of Grace as sheer Gift.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

I have only read the first post. Baptism not only removes original sin and makes us a member of the Mystical Body, but if the person is old enough, it also removes all actual sin and the punishment due to that actual sin.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B