Baptism necessary for salvation?

[runandsew]

John Chapter 1: 11-13
He came to what was his own, but his own people did not accept him.
But to those who did accept him he gave power to become children of God, to those who believe in his name, who were born not by natural generation nor by human choice nor by a man’s decision but of God.

John Chapter 2: 23 - 25
While he was in Jerusalem for the feast of Passover, **many began to believe in his name **when they saw the signs he was doing.
**But Jesus would not trust himself to them **because he knew them all, and did not need anyone to testify about human nature. He himself understood it well.

John Chapter 1: 29-33
The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world.
He is the one of whom I said, ‘A man is coming after me who ranks ahead of me because he existed before me.’
I did not know him, but the reason why I came baptizing with water was that he might be made known to Israel.”
John testified further, saying, "I saw the Spirit come down like a dove from the sky and remain upon him.
I did not know him, but the one who sent me to **baptize with water **told me, ‘On whomever you see the **Spirit **come down and remain, he is the one who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.’

John Chapter 3: 1-7
Now there was a Pharisee named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews.
He came to Jesus at night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God, for no one can do these signs that you are doing unless God is with him.”
Jesus answered and said to him, “Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born from above.”
Nicodemus said to him, “How can a person once grown old be born again? Surely he cannot reenter his mother’s womb and be born again, can he?”
Jesus answered, "Amen, amen, **I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit. **What is born of flesh is flesh and what is born of spirit is spirit.
Do not be amazed that I told you, ‘You must be born from above.’

Some Protestants say that Baptism is only an ordinance, but these scripture passages show me that Baptism is necessary salvation.
Am I reading something into these passages that is not there?

 

[runandsew]

Some Protestants say that Baptism is only an ordinance, but these scripture passages show me that Baptism is necessary salvation.
Am I reading something into these passages that is not there?

Here is my reasoning,
In John chapter 1 you have Jesus being Baptized, water and spirit are both shown there.
Also in John chapter 1 showing that those who are “born of God” receive a Power to become children of God.
In John chapter two, you have people believing in him by his signs, but he would not trust himself to them, their human belief was not enough.
In John chapter three, John gives us an example of this with Nicodemus saying that he is believes because of the signs. But Jesus tells him that you must be born again with the water and spirit (Baptism as we saw in chapter 1) to enter the kingdom of God.
So we see the discourse with Nicodemus about being about baptism. It is framed with baptism, In John chapter 1, and then right after Jesus talks with Nicodemus, in chapter 3 verse 22, it says Jesus went with his disciples baptizing. (the only time the bible says that Jesus was baptizing)

So what Jesus is saying is that we need Power to become children of God, we receive this power through baptism, and we need this baptism to enter the kingdom of God.

 

[water]

I was wondering what the Church says about this?

 

[Church_Militant]

Many things that n-C churches tell me are not “core” beliefs I find to be Biblically stated otherwise.

Baptism just for an example. Many of the modern post-reformation step children have relegated this to some sort peripheral nicety that we “should” do but it’s not necessary for one’s salvation. Yet I find an awful lot of New Testament scripture that indicates otherwise.

Examples:

Matthew 28:19: Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20: teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age."

Mark 16:15: And he said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to the whole creation.
16: He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned

Acts 2:38: And Peter said to them, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39: For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him.”
40: And he testified with many other words and exhorted them, saying, “Save yourselves from this crooked generation.”
41: So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls.

Romans 6:3: Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
4: We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.
5: For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his.

Ephesians 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism.

1st Peter 3:21: Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

There are others, but I just want to get a scriptural basis for this discussion laid.

Being Catholic I offer statements from the Catechism of the Catholic Church

**537 **

Through Baptism the Christian is sacramentally assimilated to Jesus, who in his own baptism anticipates his death and resurrection. The Christian must enter into this mystery of humble self-abasement and repentance, go down into the water with Jesus in order to rise with him, be reborn of water and the Spirit so as to become the Father’s beloved son in the Son and “walk in newness of life”:

Let us be buried with Christ by Baptism to rise with him; let us go down with him to be raised with him; and let us rise with him to be glorified with him. Everything that happened to Christ lets us know that, after the bath of water, the Holy Spirit swoops down upon us from high heaven and that, adopted by the Father’s voice, we become sons of God.And,

**1257 **

The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation. He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them. Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament. The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are “reborn of water and the Spirit.” *God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.*Is Baptism a “core teaching” and neccesary for salvation?

 

[simbagizmo]

Scriptures teach the Baptism of the Spirit and the Believers Baptism.

Baptism of the Spirit is when one receives the gift of Faith and gets reborn in Spirit. This is necessary for salvation.

Believers Baptism is after one comes to faith, they get baptized by emersion of water to symbolize their faith, but dying to oneself going under the water and symbolizing rebirth in Jesus Christ when one comes up. This is not necessary for salvation as illustrated by the thief on the cross.

But one of Faith would want to be baptized because of being obedient to God. Faith is obedience. But if believers baptism was required, the thief would not have been saved.

 

[Fuerza]

Scriptures teach the Baptism of the Spirit and the Believers Baptism.

Baptism of the Spirit is when one receives the gift of Faith and gets reborn in Spirit. This is necessary for salvation.

Believers Baptism is after one comes to faith, they get baptized by emersion of water to symbolize their faith, but dying to oneself going under the water and symbolizing rebirth in Jesus Christ when one comes up. This is not necessary for salvation as illustrated by the thief on the cross.

But one of Faith would want to be baptized because of being obedient to God. Faith is obedience. But if believers baptism was required, the thief would not have been saved.

Not according to Catholic theology. The Church recognizes baptism of water as normative, but also recognizes baptism of blood and baptism of desire when water baptism is not possible. The thief could be said to have had a baptism of desire and, therefore, his salvation is perfectly reconciled with the Catholic belief in the necessity of baptism.

 

[blackrobe]

Not according to Catholic theology. The Church recognizes baptism of water as normative, but also recognizes baptism of blood and baptism of desire when water baptism is not possible. The thief could be said to have had a baptism of desire and, therefore, his salvation is perfectly reconciled with the Catholic belief in the necessity of baptism.

I would add one detail. Baptism of desire requires perfect contrition whereas baptism with water does not. Baptism of blood I’m not clear on so I won’t comment.

JSA

 

[runandsew]

Scriptures teach the Baptism of the Spirit and the Believers Baptism.

Baptism of the Spirit is when one receives the gift of Faith and gets reborn in Spirit. This is necessary for salvation.

Believers Baptism is after one comes to faith, they get baptized by emersion of water to symbolize their faith, but dying to oneself going under the water and symbolizing rebirth in Jesus Christ when one comes up. This is not necessary for salvation as illustrated by the thief on the cross.

But one of Faith would want to be baptized because of being obedient to God. Faith is obedience. But if believers baptism was required, the thief would not have been saved.

Very interesting, could you give me the scriptures that teach this difference?

 

[simbagizmo]

Very interesting, could you give me the scriptures that teach this difference?

Sure. Baptism of the Spirit

John 1
33 "I did not recognize Him, but He who sent me to baptize in water said to me, ‘He upon whom you see the Spirit descending and remaining upon Him, this is the One who baptizes in the Holy Spirit.’

Acts 1
4 Gathering them together, He commanded them not to leave Jerusalem, but to wait for what the Father had promised, “Which,” He said, “you heard of from Me;
5 for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”

The Baptism of the Spirit is received through Faith

Gal 3
13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us–for it is written, “CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE”–
14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

John 14
12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you forever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

John 7
38 “He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, ‘From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.’”
39 But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

With this baptism of the Spirit we are reborn in Spirit. Which is required for Salvation

John 3
5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 "Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’

We are all born of water, this is the natural birth of flesh, “That which is born of flesh is flesh”. Through Faith we are then born of Spirit, “that which is born of Spirit is spirit”

After one comes to Faith and is reborn. One is told to proclaim their Faith through a believers baptism by emersion in water. This symbolizes death to oneself and being reborn in Christ. Going under the water and coming back up.

Verses for Believers Baptism

Matthew 28
19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,

Act 2:41 So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls.

Act 8
12 But when they believed Philip preaching the good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were being baptized, men and women alike.
13 Even Simon himself believed; and after being baptized, he continued on with Philip, and as he observed signs and great miracles taking place, he was constantly amazed.

Notice when people are baptized, it is after hearing and believing the Word of God. The Thief on the cross is an example of Faith, and the Baptism of the Spirit. He did not receive the believers baptism, but did receive the Baptism of the Spirit and is saved.

 

[runandsew]

You have to read John chapter 3 in context of what was written before in John Chapter 1, where John is Baptizing with water, and the spirit is present with Jesus. He is writing about being reborn in baptism, there is no mention of amniotic fluids mentioned here.

In later passages, where the people have already been baptized with water, and they are later baptized with the spirit, in the catholic faith this is confirmation. Where we are sealed with the Holy Spirit.

How does the following passage fit into there being different baptisms?
Ephesians - Chapter 4: 4-6
There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

 

[simbagizmo]

You have to read John chapter 3 in context of what was written before in John Chapter 1, where John is Baptizing with water, and the spirit is present with Jesus. He is writing about being reborn in baptism, there is no mention of amniotic fluids mentioned here.

You have to read John 3 in context with conversation between Nicodemus and Jesus.

Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Born of water in John 3:5 is in context with born of flesh in John 3:6, Born of Spirit in John 3:5 is in context with John 3:6. Going back to John 1 would make no sense to Nicodemus, who he is trying to explain this to.

Also, John’s baptism is a baptism of repentance. Once must repent prior to receiving his baptism. He turned away the Pharisees and Sadducees trying to recieve baptism because they were not repenting of their ways. Repentance must come before baptism.

In later passages, where the people have already been baptized with water, and they are later baptized with the spirit, in the catholic faith this is confirmation. Where we are sealed with the Holy Spirit.

The only passage that comes to mind here is the following in Acts

Acts 19
1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John’s baptism.
4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
7 And all the men were about twelve.

But if you read this, the disciples where disciples of John not Jesus (verse 3).
Paul told them that they should believe not in John but in Jesus (verse 4)
When the disciples heard this they believed and were baptized in the name of Jesus in response to what Paul told them (verse 5)
These people were given the gift of tongues after the baptism (verse 6)

How does the following passage fit into there being different baptisms?
Ephesians - Chapter 4: 4-6
There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

There is only one baptism for salvation that is of the Spirit when one comes to Faith. Through Faith, our Spirit is born and we are reborn. The water baptism is an ordinance given by Jesus that all of Faith should be baptized with water to symbolize their conversion. God gaves us the perfect example of this with the Thief. If believers baptism was required for salvation, the thief would not have been saved. Also Scripture teaches that believers baptism is given to repentant believers.