Baptism

[ralphinal]

Infant faith anyone?

:

Great quote

 

[notsmart]

Infant faith anyone?

:

I believe the concept is the parent’s faith can step in for them. Like the friends of the paralytic man.

 

[Steadfast]

I believe the concept is the parent’s faith can step in for them. Like the friends of the paralytic man.

But here, David speaks of trusting God himself “from his mother’s breast” i.e. infancy.

No proxy.

 

[adstrinity]

Baptism is the first step, in the normative means, that brings us in relationship with God. Until we get baptised, we are open to Satan in every way. Baptism is an anti-virus program.

 

[notsmart]

But here, David speaks of trusting God himself “from his mother’s breast” i.e. infancy.

No proxy.

I was not reffering to David in the case of the paralytic man. But the man that’s friends cut a hole on the roof to lower him down to Jesus.
Jesus told the man he was healed through the faith of his freinds.
It was I think, the only time he said that to anyone.

I’ll try to find the verse for you. I read it last week for the first time.

 

[imroc]

I was baptized by my Grandfather, a Congregational minister, with the Trinitarian formula.

I believe that it was the graces conferred by that baptism that caused me to come to Christ and to the Catholic church. There is nothing in my upbringing - except maybe my Grandma - to cause me to be open to real Christianity. I was raised Unitarian, feminist, liberal, and lived the hippy lifestyle.

Hope this is the kind of answer you were looking for!

Ruthie

Wow Ruthie! God bless you!

 

[imroc]

Greetings Brother… You might want to recheck your definition of baptism.

As you said the word baptism comes from the Greek word baptismoß which means: a washing (purification) by means of water.

I agree Wildgraywolf.

I searched this subject before and found out that there are many “baptismos” in the Bible. Not all of which are “immersions”. You should understand that modern meanings have influence on definitions and that if you were to go way far back into Old Testament times, that “baptism” could and has referred to “change” at one point. Just be careful when you try to generalize a term and twist it to match your understanding while disregarding all the other possible meanings.
God Bless

 

[imroc]

But here, David speaks of trusting God himself “from his mother’s breast” i.e. infancy.

No proxy.

“…trust you **AT **my mother’s breast…” Seems as if a mother has very much to do with it. I don’t see, “apart from my mother’s breast…”

“… FROM my mother’s womb…”

Sorry, but I don’t see your logic.

 

[notsmart]

The paralytic man was as helpless as a baby.
He had no way to see Jesus but through his friends efforts.
If we read the verses in Mat 9:2-7, Luke 5:17-26, and Mark 2:1-17

We see the most amazing thing. That man, was in need of healing of the body. His friends, had likely heard about how Jesus had preformed great miracles. They may have even seen him speak. But, we do know that they had hope that their efforts would not be wasted, to help their friend they cared so much for to cut a hole out of a roof to lower him down to Jesus.
We do not know anything about what that man was thinking, we only know what his friends were doing.
Jesus tells him his sins are forgiven.
Why?
And when Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic…

My son, your sins are forgiven. This man is not making an open confession or even a profession of belief or repentance.

He calls this man, his son. He heals not just the body, he heals the mans soul. He calls this man his son.

All this because Jesus saw the faith of his friends.

If this is possible, surely Jesus can see the faith of the parents of their newborn son, or daughter and their desire to have their son or daugther, also be called: My son (or daughter) by Jesus.
I believe most parents who believe in Christ crucifyed, will be willing to cut a roof open in a minute to have their child His child also. Don’t you think Jesus would be more than happy to see the children come to him in this way?

 

[Steadfast]

“…trust you **AT **my mother’s breast…” Seems as if a mother has very much to do with it. I don’t see, “apart from my mother’s breast…”

“… FROM my mother’s womb…”

Sorry, but I don’t see your logic.

The expression “at my mother’s breast” is indicative of age; i.e. as yet unweaned; i.e. a baby. “Apart from my mother’s breast” is not an idiom in any language I know of, whereas “at the breast” or “a suckling” is in nearly every language and in every case refers to very young age.

There is nothing else in the Psalm which would indicate that David received this faith from his mother or was the beneficiary of her faith. The psalm is about David and His God. To suggest that there is is to introduce something alien into the text in order to buttress a pet doctrine. That is, eisegesis, which is, again, a serious violation of Sola Scriptura.

The simplest reading of the text is that David had faith when he was a baby. The text has to be tortured to make it say anything else.

 

[TriuneUnity]

The expression “at my mother’s breast” is indicative of age; i.e. as yet unweaned; i.e. a baby. “Apart from my mother’s breast” is not an idiom in any language I know of, whereas “at the breast” or “a suckling” is in nearly every language and in every case refers to very young age.

There is nothing else in the Psalm which would indicate that David received this faith from his mother or was the beneficiary of her faith. The psalm is about David and His God. To suggest that there is is to introduce something alien into the text in order to buttress a pet doctrine. That is, eisegesis, which is, again, a serious violation of Sola Scriptura.

The simplest reading of the text is that David had faith when he was a baby. The text has to be tortured to make it say anything else.

 

[dougfreed]

The paralytic man was as helpless as a baby.
He had no way to see Jesus but through his friends efforts.
If we read the verses in Mat 9:2-7, Luke 5:17-26, and Mark 2:1-17

We see the most amazing thing. That man, was in need of healing of the body. His friends, had likely heard about how Jesus had preformed great miracles. They may have even seen him speak. But, we do know that they had hope that their efforts would not be wasted, to help their friend they cared so much for to cut a hole out of a roof to lower him down to Jesus.
We do not know anything about what that man was thinking, we only know what his friends were doing.
Jesus tells him his sins are forgiven.
Why?
And when Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic…

My son, your sins are forgiven. This man is not making an open confession or even a profession of belief or repentance.

He calls this man, his son. He heals not just the body, he heals the mans soul. He calls this man his son.

All this because Jesus saw the faith of his friends.

If this is possible, surely Jesus can see the faith of the parents of their newborn son, or daughter and their desire to have their son or daugther, also be called: My son (or daughter) by Jesus.
I believe most parents who believe in Christ crucifyed, will be willing to cut a roof open in a minute to have their child His child also. Don’t you think Jesus would be more than happy to see the children come to him in this way?

With this being said why in the world did Jesus BEING THE SON OF GOD go forth and get baptized in The Jordan River. Come on God opened the skys sent The Holy Spirit and said THIS IS MY SON WHOM I AM PLEASED WITH.

Jesus replied that it should be done because “it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness” (Matthew 3:15).
Sure you can offer your child in infant baptism or whatever you want to call it fact remains when you are old enough or in this case well enough to know sin you should make a outward admission that you are dead to old ways and born again for Christ…

 

[ralphinal]

With this being said why in the world did Jesus BEING THE SON OF GOD go forth and get baptized in The Jordan River. Come on God opened the skys sent The Holy Spirit and said THIS IS MY SON WHOM I AM PLEASED WITH.

Jesus replied that it should be done because “it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness” (Matthew 3:15).
Sure you can offer your child in infant baptism or whatever you want to call it fact remains when you are old enough or in this case well enough to know sin you should make a outward admission that you are dead to old ways and born again for Christ…

And that is called Confirmation in the Catholic Church. I think some Protestant Churches have it as well.

 

[notsmart]

And that is called Confirmation in the Catholic Church. I think some Protestant Churches have it as well.

Thank you for adding that, I simply forgot to because I made the rash assumption that everyone was familliar with that procedure.

This is why I am confused to objections to infant baptism. The infant does confirm their belief at confirmation themselves. Without the heresy of re-baptism.

 

[Church_Militant]

What is Baptism?
What does it mean to you?

How Is A Catholic Saved?

The Case For Infant Baptism

Baptism~ Necessary or Not?

"I Find No Sacraments In the Bible" he said.

BAPTISM Definition

The word baptism is the English form of the Grk. baptismos. The verb from which this noun is derived-baptizo-is to mean “to dip, immerse.” )

John 3:5-8

The way scripture says is you must make a Conscience decision to follow Christ how can a baby make a Conscience decision to accept and follow Christ.

…Where does scripture speak of infant baptism? Jesus does say bring them to learn from him.

To me it means I have accepted Christ as my Lord ans Savior. I died of my old self and have been Born again as one of Gods children…

See the second link above.

With this being said why in the world did Jesus BEING THE SON OF GOD go forth and get baptized in The Jordan River. Come on God opened the skys sent The Holy Spirit and said THIS IS MY SON WHOM I AM PLEASED WITH.

Jesus replied that it should be done because “it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness” (Matthew 3:15).

It was important enough that Jesus Himself was baptized even when there were no sins to wash away. That should tell us something, right?

Oh and what was the Gospel message that the apostles themselves preached on the day of Pentecost, under the direct inspiration of the Holy Spirit? Acts 2:38] And Peter said to them, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39] For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him.”
40] And he testified with many other words and exhorted them, saying, “Save yourselves from this crooked generation.”
41] So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls.

And then what was the message given to St. Paul at his conversion? Acts 22:16] And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name.’

Sure you can offer your child in infant baptism or whatever you want to call it fact remains when you are old enough or in this case well enough to know sin you should make a outward admission that you are dead to old ways and born again for Christ…

Well, as my article on infant baptism shows, who made the profession of faith for Jewish infants? Their families. Read the link.

Sure you can set aside what the scriptures actually say and teach, but…I wouldn’t.

 

[Wildgraywolf]

I agree Wildgraywolf.

I searched this subject before and found out that there are many “baptismos” in the Bible. Not all of which are “immersions”. You should understand that modern meanings have influence on definitions and that if you were to go way far back into Old Testament times, that “baptism” could and has referred to “change” at one point.

I understood the thread to be about water baptism as understood by us catholics folks.

Just be careful when you try to generalize a term and twist it to match your understanding while disregarding all the other possible meanings.
God Bless

What’d I twist? I just looked the word up.

 

[imroc]

I understood the thread to be about water baptism as understood by us catholics folks.

What’d I twist? I just looked the word up.

sorry, i must have been tired. i looked at my post and realize now, that i was talking to the original poster and agreeing with you. however, my wording seems to be directed at you! lol. sorry.