Baptist brother's apposition to the sacraments

[phil19034]

So I’m almost thinking of making a new thread for this catholic revert. Something is very off on his theology. He commented with this after I made a response to my brother with all your help. He said:

“if The Holy Spirit dwels in you, then you are already in familial relationship with God. No need for sacraments to achieve that.”

I then asked:

“what are the sacraments to you? And do you think they’re superfluous?”

He then replied:

"They certainly are not superfluous. But one needs to be very careful about where they are placing their trust. The sacraments are a blessing when received by a person who knows they are saved by grace through faith in Christ alone. When a person knows that their salvation is secure only because of a direct personal relationship with Christ who died for their sins, and for no other reason, then the Sacraments are a blessing to be sure.

But i think Galatians 5 makes it clear that the moment a person begins to think that their salvation depends on anything other than faith in Christ, that is the moment they fall from grace. We are justified the moment we are converted, and this happens through heartfelt faith. It is the free gift of God to all who believe in their heart. The sacraments are icing on the cake. But anyone who has the indwelling of The Holy Spirit is already a full and complete member of the family of God, period."

I think he does seem to be separating the sacraments from a relationship with Christ. And is it just me or does he basically claim “they’re not superfluous” but then goes on to describe them as if they’re superfluous? Really need your help.

It sounds to me that this new Catholic (like some Evangelicals, and even some Catholics) is focused on the bare minimum requirements to get into Heaven.

Catholics are taught to shoot for complete holiness, not to settle for just barely getting into heaven. After all, a wise priest once said “always aim for Heaven, because if you aim for Purgatory you might miss.”

The Sacraments help us grow in holiness, and restore us to Grace when we sin, ONLY if we cooperate with the Sacramental Grace.

Protestants (like your brother) often view the Sacraments as earning our salvation, which they are not.

I pray this helps.

God Bless

 

[jcrichton]

So I’m almost thinking of making a new thread for this catholic revert. Something is very off on his theology. He commented with this after I made a response to my brother with all your help. He said:

“if The Holy Spirit dwels in you, then you are already in familial relationship with God. No need for sacraments to achieve that.”

I then asked:

“what are the sacraments to you? And do you think they’re superfluous?”

He then replied:

"They certainly are not superfluous. But one needs to be very careful about where they are placing their trust. The sacraments are a blessing when received by a person who knows they are saved by grace through faith in Christ alone. When a person knows that their salvation is secure only because of a direct personal relationship with Christ who died for their sins, and for no other reason, then the Sacraments are a blessing to be sure.

But i think Galatians 5 makes it clear that the moment a person begins to think that their salvation depends on anything other than faith in Christ, that is the moment they fall from grace. We are justified the moment we are converted, and this happens through heartfelt faith. It is the free gift of God to all who believe in their heart. The sacraments are icing on the cake. But anyone who has the indwelling of The Holy Spirit is already a full and complete member of the family of God, period."

I think he does seem to be separating the sacraments from a relationship with Christ. And is it just me or does he basically claim “they’re not superfluous” but then goes on to describe them as if they’re superfluous? Really need your help.

Hi!

The problem with such theologies is that they are minimalist and simplistic… since they reject the Catholic Church they cannot embrace Catholic Doctrine and, specially, the Seven Sacraments…

While it is true that the Holy Spirit makes in us His Abode (Living Place/Abide), that is also true for Christ, the Son, and for the Father… would it not be superfluous for God to reside in the Believer as the Holy Trinity? That would be to be fully ignorant of God’s Unity; yet, Christ tells us that He, and the Father and the Holy Spirit Abide in the Church and it has been Revealed that the Church is the Body of Christ…

…taking shortcuts is the most useless instrument a Christian can utilize… to say that the Sacraments are redundant or attained at a higher spirituality is ignorance of the Faith:

3 And not only so; but we glory also in tribulations, knowing that tribulation worketh patience; 4 And patience trial; and trial hope; 5 And hope confoundeth not: because the charity of God is poured forth in our hearts, by the Holy Ghost, who is given to us. 6 For why did Christ, when as yet we were weak, according to the time, die for the ungodly?

(Romans 5:3-6)
Did Christ Teach self-reliance or some sort of “done deal theology?” NO!:

3 Now you are clean by reason of the word, which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abide in the vine, so neither can you, unless you abide in me. 5 I am the vine: you the branches: he that abideth in me, and I in him, the same beareth much fruit: for without me you can do nothing.

(St. John 15:3-5)
So you see, Christ is not Teaching assurance of the Faith but assurance of Life if we Abide in Him and if He Abides in us!

…there are those who argue that Scriptures tells us that the Holy Spirit has been sent to all and therefore, having an “intimate/personal” relationship with Christ (or the Holy Spirit indwelling in the Believer) is all that it takes… yet, that is a flawed theology… let’s see where they get it:

… I will give my laws into their mind, and in their heart will I write them: and I will be their God, and they shall be my people: 11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me from the least to the greatest of them:…

(Hebrews 8:10-12)
Yet Scriptures are not saying that New Testament Sacred Writings are superfluous and that Christ erred in Founding a Church!:

…supporting one another in charity. 3 Careful to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 One body and one Spirit; as you are called in one hope of your calling. 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism. 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in us all…

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:… henceforth we be no more children tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine by the wickedness of men, by cunning craftiness, by which they lie in wait to deceive. 15 But doing the truth in charity, we may in all things grow up in him who is the head, even Christ: 16 From whom the whole body, being compacted and fitly joined together, by what every joint supplieth, according to the operation in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body, unto the edifying of itself in charity.

(Ephesians 4:1-6)
Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Gorgias]

"Sacraments are good and holy. But to place them on a level above the personal relationship with Christ is just not right. the fact is you can have all the sacraments you want every day of your life but still end up in hell.

Hmm… sounds like he’s hearing “get sacraments, but don’t worry about your relationship with God.” Of course, that’s something that the Catholic Church doesn’t teach!

He’s right, of course, that if you have sacraments but no relationship, you aren’t headed toward heaven. However…

But a personal relationship with Christ is an absolute guarantee of current salvation.

Judas had a personal relationship with Christ.

It’s not “an absolute guarantee of salvation.” Maybe, by saying “guarantee of current salvation,” he means that, if we’re in a state of grace now, and we die now, we’ll get to heaven. Fair enough.

But, the real question is: how can we maintain and grow in a relationship with God… other than through recourse to sacraments?

If a Catholic “has a relationship with God”, but avoids the sacraments (e.g., never receives Eucharist, never seeks Reconciliation), how could anyone say that he “has a relationship” with the God whose freely offered Graces he eschews?

Sacraments are good, but a personal relationship with Christ is far better. Ideally you want both. But the one absolute necessity is the relationship. And through the personal relationship God can give you every Grace, even unlimited Grace.

Not quite. If one sins (and, after all, who doesn’t?), but does not seek Reconciliation, then he does not receive the Grace he would receive through sacramental Reconciliation. If one sins venially but does not accept Eucharist, he does not receive the Grace he would receive through the Eucharist.

Relationship without Sacrament (which is what he’s proposing) isn’t merely ‘sub-optimal’, it’s not the kind of relationship that Christ proposes for us.

“They certainly are not superfluous. But one needs to be very careful about where they are placing their trust. The sacraments are a blessing”

No: the sacraments are means of receiving God’s Grace. So, Catholics “place their trust” in God’s Grace!

The sacraments are a blessing when received by a person who knows they are saved by grace through faith in Christ alone.

Two thoughts:

First: if we agree that we’re saved “by grace”, then how is it that we’d say that we receive grace? More to the point, what is it that the sacraments give us? Grace. So, to say “we need relationship” when Scripture is telling us that we are saved by the precise thing that the sacraments offer us… well, it seems a bit odd.

Second: he needs to re-read Ephesians 2:8 … he’s inserted some words that aren’t there: “For by grace you have been saved through faith.” Full stop.

It seems that your friend is being presented with an opportunity to re-acquaint himself with the differences between Catholic and Evangelical soteriological theology…

When a person knows that their salvation is secure only because of a direct personal relationship with Christ who died for their sins, and for no other reason

:nope:

One never “knows their salvation is secure.” Paul attests to this in 1 Cor 9:27, when he admits to his concern that, having had a personal relationship with Christ to this point in his life, he might slip up and “be disqualified”.

So, having a personal relationship with Christ today is not an absolute guarantee of salvation tomorrow. “Once saved, always saved” is antithetical to Catholic doctrine.

But i think Galatians 5 makes it clear that the moment a person begins to think that their salvation depends on anything other than faith in Christ, that is the moment they fall from grace.

No, I think that this is a mis-reading of Galatians 5. Paul is contrasting “faith in Christ” with “faith in the Mosaic Law,” not “faith in Christ” against “anything other than faith in Christ.” If anything, Paul is telling us to rely on the Spirit. (That would be the Spirit through whom we’re baptized; the Spirit in whom we’re sealed in the sacrament of Confirmation; the Spirit upon whom the priest calls in the consecration of the Eucharist… right? I would say that reliance on the Spirit is precisely reliance on the sacramental grace God offers to us!)

The sacraments are icing on the cake.

Sacraments are part of the batter, I’d say.

But anyone who has the indwelling of The Holy Spirit is already a full and complete member of the family of God, period."

No one would dispute this. And, in fact, for a non-Catholic Christian, this is the extent to which they participate in the life of Christ. However, for a Catholic, being a “full and complete member of the family of God” implies participation in the sacraments; a Catholic who does not do so, is not as “full and complete member” as he might think he is. :sad_yes:

 

[LatinRight]

The full text of the canons of the Council of Orange, which were written to address the Pelagian heresy, and the full text of the canons of Trent, which were written to address a heresy on the same topic of justification but which (the new heresy) was going too far the other way, do not conflict.

Anyway, I didn’t necessarily find anything contradictory in your posts, LatinRite, but I just wanted to provide the canons regarding these topics so your posts are read correctly by others, such that they don’t stray one way or the other off the Catholic “middle road.”

What was proclaimed at Trent is part of the deposit of faith and must be believed by all Catholics.

God bless Wesrock and every reader of the CAF.

Thank you for your post.

I think you know Wesrock before I converted to the Catholic Church I was an Evangelical Christian.

I have to admit as an Evangelical Christian I had poor theological knowledge.

That poor knowledge, I even believed a God’s child/elect can lose salvation, **that really explains how poor knowledge I had as an Evangelical Christian.
**

When I became a Catholic Christian I started to study Catholic teachings.

I was and I’m very impressed with Catholic teachings, in particular The Predestination of the Elect, God’s special grace The Gift of Final Perseverance, Conditions of Supernatural Merit, JOINT DECLARATION ON THE DOCTRINE OF JUSTIFICATION by the Lutheran World Federation and the Catholic Church, ANNEX TO THE OFFICIAL COMMON STATEMENT, DEI VERBUM 21. etc.

I also did and doing serious Bible study in light of the above teachings of the Catholic Church.

I had strong faith as an Evangelical Christian, but when I studied the above teachings of the Catholic Church** my faith became even greater.**

So I’m blessed because I became a Catholic Christian, but I also noticed, some Catholic Christians and others neither know the above wonderful teachings of the Catholic Church neither know the Scriptures.

Only know some kind of a Faith + Work salvation, which causes the loss of all supernatural merit, because the works we do to save ourselves or to keep our salvation is not supernatural works, because this works are not up to the standard of supernatural works.

Satan knows he cannot still the salvation of God’s children/elect because their salvation/everlasting life is eternally protected with God’s special grace The Gift of Final Perseverance.

But Satan also know, God’s special grace The Gift of Final Perseverance doesn’t protect God’s children/elect/denominations from some form of deceptions.

So, Satan doing the next “best thing,” he is stealing the supernatural works/merit of God’s children/elect, in particular some denominations, and he does it very skillfully.

If a God’s child/elect believes Satan’s lies, in all his life working on to achieve his salvation and to keep his salvation.

And if he would know the teachings of the Catholic Church on the conditions of good works/supernatural merit he would realize at once, the above lies are Satan’s deceptions.

Of course those many denominations whose members believe Faith + Works salvation + works for the grace of God for salvation, don’t know the teachings of the Catholic Church on the conditions of good works/supernatural works.

I tell you Wesrock, my aim is (among others), according to the teachings of the Catholic Church to teach every readers of the CAF the conditions of good works/supernatural works.

God bless Wesrock and every readers of the CAF.

LatinRight

 

[Shaolen]

So here’s what the catholic revert responded with after I asked him about what he means regarding a “personal relationship”

“There is nothing more holistic than having he indwelling Holy Spirit. That is a personal relationship, more familial than anything else in the universe. the Sacraments bring you into direct contact with God for a moment, but a personal relationship results in unending intimacy with the Spirit of God who lives inside you. This is not some sort of blind faith whereby a person believes The Holy Spirit is inside them, but a real supernatural, personal, intimate, ongoing RELATIONSHIP with God. This, and this alone, is salvific. The sacraments only have effect when the person is already in such relationship and if they are already in such relationship then they are already as close and familial with God as they will ever be. The sacraments are great, holy, and blessed means of grace. Don’t get me wrong. Everyone should participate in them, and true believers will be blessed by them. But do not let popular Catholicism lead you astray into rigid sacramental legalism.”

 

[Wesrock]

This may only be a dispute in emphasis, where both sides actually do agree on doctrine, but due to different backgrounds and experiences are concerned with different sides of the argument.

Does he agree with the canons of session vii of the Council of Trent?
thecounciloftrent.com/ch7.htm

Does he agree with the Catechism on the sacraments, including what is written on baptism?

Does he actually disagree with anything in that Scott Hahn quote? Or is his response projecting certain assumptions on what it means?

 

[Muzhik]

I was watching the St. Paul Center for Biblical Theology’s video series on the sacraments. I came across a part that I thought was neat so I quoted it in a post saying:

“God wants something far greater than a personal relationship. He wants to make us a part of his family. and how do we become God’s son’s and daughters? Through covenants. Sacraments are nothing less than covenant oaths. Through the sacraments we swear a covenant oath to God. the problem for us is that covenants are foreign enough in our modern culture that we have a tendancy to confuse them with contracts. Covenants are to contracts, what marriage is to prostitution.”

Then my Baptist brother responded to this saying:

“Does a marriage license guarantee you’ll stay married? No. It’s the relationship you have with your spouse that’ll determine how long your marriage will last. You can’t just check off sacraments like a to-do list and think that it will get you in. God loves us even if we haven’t loved him. “In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us.” (1 John 4:10) It’s this very idea that you have to do a, b, and c, or that you have to be righteous enough, that keeps so many people from coming to Christ. When they realize that we have all fallen from God and that he loves you, no matter what, that’s when people come to Him and yearn to follow in Christ’s footsteps.”

I’m wondering all your thoughts regarding his points. How would you respond. What might be persuasive in explaining the sacraments to him?

Getting away from OSAS and all the other “things” mentioned in this thread:

Your Baptist brother is expressing an American/Protestant/Pagan idea of salvation, Covenants, and contracts. He totally blew off your explanation of “covenant” and went right into equating a covenant and a contract.

(BTW, I use the description “American/Protestant/Pagan” for something that probably belongs in another thread, but I think it has bearing on this argument. Americans have gone so far in rejecting any notion of royalty that I think many American Protestants implicitly reject the idea of Christ (and G_D) as King in favor of a “God as Chairman of the Church Board” or even “God as the Chairman-Emeritus.” “We still keep his picture in the lobby as our founder, but we’ve decided to move the organization in a new direction.”

Americans have strayed so far from knowledge and acceptance of royalty that we have no idea of what it means to “swear fealty to your Sovereign Lord”. And for that reason your brother is locked into the idea of covenant equals contract. It is not. In short, a covenant is a promise made out of love.)

G_D made a promise to the Jewish people out of His love for them. He did this out of love, and since G_D IS love, this covenential promise cannot be broken. (This is the mistake that St. Augustine made in proposing what became known as Replacement Theology.) Your brother is confusing the secular meaning of marriage with the sacramental meaning of marriage. In secular terms, the marriage is a three-way contract between the man, the woman, and the state. The state’s main concern is to ensure the orderly transfer of the man’s property and titles to his offspring through the marriage. The state is willing to accept and condone divorce provided one or more of the elements of the secular marriage contract have been broken and so that the transfer of title and property to the man’s children is assured.

Sacramental marriage, on the other hand, is a three-way covenant between the man, the woman, and G_D. Since it is a covenant, it is made out of love and doesn’t depend on the ebb and flow of the couple’s love over time; since G_D is eternal, it cannot be broken until G_D relieves the parties of that obligation through death. And since “Whenever two or more of you are gathered in My Name, there I also shall be,” God will always be with the couple and their family for as long as they will call on His name. And the main goal of a sacramental marriage is NOT happiness, or making babies, or anything else. It is to help your partner become a saint.

Hope this helps.

 

[Shaolen]

This may only be a dispute in emphasis, where both sides actually do agree on doctrine, but due to different backgrounds and experiences are concerned with different sides of the argument.

Does he agree with the canons of session vii of the Council of Trent?
thecounciloftrent.com/ch7.htm

Does he agree with the Catechism on the sacraments, including what is written on baptism?

Does he actually disagree with anything in that Scott Hahn quote? Or is his response projecting certain assumptions on what it means?

His take on baptism is that he believes that through perfect contrition and implicit desire that people experience the baptism of desire prior to actual water baptism. He then concludes from this a couple things

A) that in many cases the water baptism is purely symbolic (which I believe this position was condemned by Trent)

B) that people all over the world are receiving the baptism of desire

C) he uses this to justify his claim that “at rock bottom its a personal relationship and only that that truly saves”

 

[jcrichton]

God bless Wesrock and every reader of the CAF.

Thank you for your post.

I think you know Wesrock before I converted to the Catholic Church I was an Evangelical Christian.

I have to admit as an Evangelical Christian I had poor theological knowledge.

That poor knowledge, I even believed a God’s child/elect can lose salvation, **that really explains how poor knowledge I had as an Evangelical Christian.
**

When I became a Catholic Christian I started to study Catholic teachings.

I was and I’m very impressed with Catholic teachings, in particular The Predestination of the Elect, God’s special grace The Gift of Final Perseverance, Conditions of Supernatural Merit, JOINT DECLARATION ON THE DOCTRINE OF JUSTIFICATION by the Lutheran World Federation and the Catholic Church, ANNEX TO THE OFFICIAL COMMON STATEMENT, DEI VERBUM 21. etc.

I also did and doing serious Bible study in light of the above teachings of the Catholic Church.

I had strong faith as an Evangelical Christian, but when I studied the above teachings of the Catholic Church** my faith became even greater.**

So I’m blessed because I became a Catholic Christian, but I also noticed, some Catholic Christians and others neither know the above wonderful teachings of the Catholic Church neither know the Scriptures.

Only know some kind of a Faith + Work salvation, which causes the loss of all supernatural merit, because the works we do to save ourselves or to keep our salvation is not supernatural works, because this works are not up to the standard of supernatural works.

Satan knows he cannot still the salvation of God’s children/elect because their salvation/everlasting life is eternally protected with God’s special grace The Gift of Final Perseverance.

But Satan also know, God’s special grace The Gift of Final Perseverance doesn’t protect God’s children/elect/denominations from some form of deceptions.

So, Satan doing the next “best thing,” he is stealing the supernatural works/merit of God’s children/elect, in particular some denominations, and he does it very skillfully.

If a God’s child/elect believes Satan’s lies, in all his life working on to achieve his salvation and to keep his salvation.

And if he would know the teachings of the Catholic Church on the conditions of good works/supernatural merit he would realize at once, the above lies are Satan’s deceptions.

Of course those many denominations whose members believe Faith + Works salvation + works for the grace of God for salvation, don’t know the teachings of the Catholic Church on the conditions of good works/supernatural works.

I tell you Wesrock, my aim is (among others), according to the teachings of the Catholic Church to teach every readers of the CAF the conditions of good works/supernatural works.

God bless Wesrock and every readers of the CAF.

LatinRight

Hi!

…I think that you are speaking of several issues… the law (works of the law) don’t save; the works that proceed from Faith in Jesus don’t save.

Protestants confuse both issues when they speak of Catholic “salvation” through works.

Catholics misunderstand Church’s Teachings on Salvation when they think that “doing good works” will save them.

…then we have the minimalists on both camps that want to embrace “salvation” on merits or divine selection (God saves certain elect).

Fellowship in Christ is where all can obtain the security of Salvation, which God has predestined to man… this Salvation is Hidden in Christ and only through Fellowship in Christ, in His Mystical Body, can we obtain that which we Hope for:

4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abide in the vine, so neither can you, unless you abide in me. 5 I am the vine: you the branches: he that abideth in me, and I in him, the same beareth much fruit: for without me you can do nothing. 6 If any one abide not in me, he shall be cast forth as a branch, and shall wither, and they shall gather him up, and cast him into the fire, and he burneth. 7 If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, you shall ask whatever you will, and it shall be done unto you. 8 In this is my Father glorified; that you bring forth very much fruit, and become my disciples. 9 As the Father hath loved me, I also have loved you. Abide in my love. 10 If you keep my commandments, you shall abide in my love; as I also have kept my Father’s commandments, and do abide in his love.

(St. John 15:4-10)
Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

So here’s what the catholic revert responded with after I asked him about what he means regarding a “personal relationship”

“There is nothing more holistic than having he indwelling Holy Spirit. That is a personal relationship, more familial than anything else in the universe. the Sacraments bring you into direct contact with God for a moment, but a personal relationship results in unending intimacy with the Spirit of God who lives inside you. This is not some sort of blind faith whereby a person believes The Holy Spirit is inside them, but a real supernatural, personal, intimate, ongoing RELATIONSHIP with God. This, and this alone, is salvific. The sacraments only have effect when the person is already in such relationship and if they are already in such relationship then they are already as close and familial with God as they will ever be. The sacraments are great, holy, and blessed means of grace. Don’t get me wrong. Everyone should participate in them, and true believers will be blessed by them. But do not let popular Catholicism lead you astray into rigid sacramental legalism.”

Hi!

…so basically he is saying that a person who enjoys such unity is a saint (righteous and unable to sin).

Would that person exist?

Is that Scriptural?

If it is, why is it that the New Testament Epistles were Written with Doctrinal Teachings and warnings about going back to a life of sin?

Would the Apostolic Writing not simply be a pat-on-the-back?–'yes! …we won the race!

The fact is that not once does Scriptures attest to a practice (worship) of “God (the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit) and me.”

When Scriptures speak of Worship (practice) it is in the Holy Spirit, through Christ, and in the Body!

Note St. Paul’s admonition:

15 Know you not that your bodies are the members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid. 16 Or know you not, that he who is joined to a harlot, is made one body? For they shall be, saith he, two in one flesh. 17 But he who is joined to the Lord, is one spirit. 18 Fly fornication. Every sin that a man doth, is without the body; but he that committeth fornication, sinneth against his own body. 19 Or know you not, that your members are the temple of the Holy Ghost, who is in you, whom you have from God; and you are not your own? 20 For you are bought with a great price. Glorify and bear God in your body.

(1 Corinthians 6:15-20)
…it is not about: ‘…how great we are!’ Rather, he cautions: ‘do not engage sin!’

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

His take on baptism is that he believes that through perfect contrition and implicit desire that people experience the baptism of desire prior to actual water baptism. He then concludes from this a couple things

A) that in many cases the water baptism is purely symbolic (which I believe this position was condemned by Trent)

B) that people all over the world are receiving the baptism of desire

C) he uses this to justify his claim that “at rock bottom its a personal relationship and only that that truly saves”

Hi!

…ask him to quote Jesus where He Teaches such understanding!

Maran atha!

Angel