Barque (Ship) of Peter

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The church is pictured in some writings as the Barque (Ship) of Peter, with Peter and successive popes as the respective captains. Some say that the ordinary person’s submission to the pope (captian) should be unconditional. Cardinal Cajetan, for example, said: “God set the pope at the controls and even if he tries to run the ship into an iceberg you must still quietly submit to his absolute governorship and pray that God will stop him at the last minute.”

Others say there should be submission, with lmited exceptions. Here is an example from Wessel Gansfort from the 15th century.
Men who are sailing amid storms and tempests with an experienced but worn-out pilot may oppose him, but in the end they ought to obey him. But, on the other hand, if the pilot is drunken or asleep and lets go his hold of the helm and allows the ship to be driven and tossed hither and thither; then others, who are skilled in seamanship, not only may cast him aside and take the helm, but they ought to do so, having regard not for their own safety only but for that of their companions in the ship. So should it be in Peter’s boat!
What are people’s thoughts? It is hard to see Cajetan’s view as being correct given the likes of Alexander VI. Wessel’s view seems to express the proper view of authority with reasonable qualifications.

T. More
 
I would agree with Cajetin for with his answer comes absolute trust in God. Any other choice has one Playing God. This includes judging Alexander VI

st julie
 
St. Julie: Not if God’s grant of authority has express or implied exceptions.

T. More
 
The Bible condemns those who would mutiny by rejecting authority; remember Korah’s rebellion (Jude 1:11; Numbers 16:1-35) ?

Jesus said our attitude toward hypocritical church leaders should be:
“practice and observe whatever they tell you, but not what they do; for they preach, but do not practice.” (Matt 23:3) Nothing here about tossing them aside and taking over command of the ship for ourselves.
 
i thoroughly disagree with cajetan’s assertion. the BIble instructs us to obey our authorities, even the government, even when it is wrong. paul wrote that we should obey the powers that God has placed over us, and he wrote this from a jail cell where he had been imprisoned unjustly.

we should not ‘blindly’ obey. we should obey with both eyes wide open. but we should obey. God, i believe, does not ever call us to ‘toss our authority aside’ (as is popular in the philosophies of our age ever since the so called enlightenment), but to work in them, and through them, to bring about real and lasting change, where possible, in the world in which we live.
 
Without a doubt, there is a high priority on obedience.

Leaving aside the spiritual realm and looking at the secular analogy, if you were on the ship with the drunk captain trying to ram the ship into the iceberg, would you let him do it (i.e. obey him)?

Thanks
Sir Thomas More
 
T More

That is probably the hardest question for a Christian. Would you die for the faith?
God looks after ‘Peter’ Of that I firmly believe.

st julie
 
T. More:
Without a doubt, there is a high priority on obedience.

Leaving aside the spiritual realm and looking at the secular analogy, if you were on the ship with the drunk captain trying to ram the ship into the iceberg, would you let him do it (i.e. obey him)?

Thanks
Sir Thomas More
On a secular ship, you bet I would try to save the ship, but we are not talking about a secular ship, but the Barque of Peter, or if you prefer, the Barque of Jesus, for it was Jesus who gave Peter and his successors the duty to guide the Church, and the promise that the Church would be led into all truth by the Holy Spirit. The amazing thing is that even with less than godly popes, the Church has never crashed onto the rocks. Rather, it has been those who deserted her that ended up going astray in the fog of mere human understanding, fear, and ego.
 
there are too many if’s in that question to answer it simply. i started to put ‘if i’d taken an oath to follow him and if there were in the rules of the ship…’ blah blah blah. it depends on the situation. am i just on the ship as a passenger? in that case, i’m not ‘under his authority’. am i part of the crew? then part of my responsibility is the safety of the ship, the crew, and the captain, and i would be under the captain’s orders to prevent disaster by taking over control.

but the analogy broke down a long time ago…
 
Jeff: I don’t think it is that hard. Under maritime law you would have a general duty to obey, whether you were a passenger or a part of the crew.
 
Della: You would agree, that even if the pope’s ex cathedra teachings are beyond reproach, his other teachings and instructions are open to doubt, right? For example, when Alexander VI instructed and encouraged his longtime mistress mistress Vanoza (mother to Alexander VI’s children, Cesare, Lucrezia, and Juan Borgia) to engage in illicit activities with him, she was under no duty to obey those, right?

If so, this could leave quite a bit open to resistance. Some people, for example, say there are only two papal pronouncements that are ex cathedra.

T More
 
T.More,
What are people’s thoughts? It is hard to see Cajetan’s view as being correct given the likes of Alexander VI.
Cajetan is correct, if one understand the greater context of Catholic teaching on the matter. I think one ought to distinguish between ordinary universal teachings formally promulgated by the pope as opposed to other less formal instructions or actions of the pope. To be sure, one is alway bound to obey their superiors (Heb 13:17) unless the directive violates higher authority.

If merely a directive of the ordinary magisterium (formal teaching of a bishop given to those within his jurisdiction … the bishop is also called the “ordinary”), one ought to discern if there is a higher authority, e.g., direct Divine revelation, solemn magisterial teachings (ex cathreda papal pronouncements and certain councilar decrees), ordinary universal magisterial teachings (catechisms, councilar pronouncements, papal encyclicals, etc.), which contradicts it. If one* is not* in immediate peril by obeying a doubtful directive, they are bound to either obey it or consult higher authority on the matter. If one is in immediate peril by obeying a doubtful directive, that are not bound to obey it as necessity provides dispensation.

According to St. Thomas Aquinas, in regard to obedience to the law, he states, “it is not competent for everyone to expound what is useful and what is not useful.” (ST, II, 96, 6). Instead, he asserts “those alone can do this who are in authority, and who, on account of such like cases, have the power to dispense from the laws.” Dispensation is certainly appropriate in times where it would be perilous to obey the law: “If, however, the peril be so sudden as not to allow of the delay involved by referring the matter to authority, the mere necessity brings with it a dispensation, since necessity knows no law.” Nevertheless, “if it be a matter of doubt, he must either act according to the letter of the law, or consult those in power.”

You asked:
other [papal] teachings and instructions are open to doubt, right?
Not necessarily. One is bound by canon law to give their religious submission to ordinary universal teachings of the magisterium and the assent of faith to solemn teachings (de fide) teachings of the magisterium. Instructing a mistress is not a magisterial act, just as Pres Clinton’s interactions with his mistress were not Presidential acts. One must be clearly acting in the capacity of the office for which they hold. Neither was the instruction by Alexander VI a universal teaching. It would not qualify as “binding” under canon law.

Contrary to what you have heard, Catholics are bound by more than just *de fide *dogmas. They are bound by Divine Law (immutable *de fide *dogmasand direct Divine revelations), Ecclesiastical Laws (non-immutable Church law), and Civil Law, in that order. The binding force of the latter is only insofar as it does not violate the former. Ecclesiastical laws, however, can never be contrary to Divine Law.
 
T.More,
if you were on the ship with the drunk captain trying to ram the ship into the iceberg, would you let him do it (i.e. obey him)?
Given my terribly fallible understanding of how to drive a ship, I’d defer to his authority on the matter. I’d pray. I’d hope I was wrong about our certain doom. I’d speak up. Then I’d pray some more. Yet in the final analysis, I’d let those placed in authority to act in accord with that authority.

However, let’s say I were infallible in knowing that if I did not do something just that moment, and infallibly knew that I would be negligent toward my love for my neighbors if I didn’t act, I’d push him aside and try my best.

Yet the scenario is rather impractical, as the problem presumes I infallibly know better than the captain as to what he’s doing, as to the certainty of my observations, as to the confidence that I could do much better. Lot’s of presumption, in my opinion.
 
You can see where the secular analogy fails to help with the religious analogy, can’t you? God is guiding the ship. Is that a presumption? Perhaps it can be seen as such. However, I KNOW I’m NOT infallible and indefectable, whereas I have many converging clues that the Church is infallible and indefectable due to the promises of Christ, enough converging clues to place my faith in her.

Starting from this point of faith, I can be certain that my conclusion that we will certainly crash into the iceberg is merely a product of my own ignorance.
 
Instead of Wessel’s view, I hold to the following:

According to Venerable John Henry Cardinal Newman:
I say with Cardinal Bellarmine whether the Pope be infallible or not in any pronouncement, anyhow he is to be obeyed. No good can come from disobedience. His facts and his warnings may be all wrong; his deliberations may have been biassed. He may have been misled. Imperiousness and craft, tyranny and cruelty, may be patent in the conduct of his advisers and instruments. But when he speaks formally and authoritatively he speaks as our Lord would have him speak, and all those imperfections and sins of individuals are overruled for that result which our Lord intends (just as the action of the wicked and of enemies to the Church are overruled) and therefore the Pope’s word stands, and a blessing goes with obedience to it, and no blessing with disobedience.
[John Henry Newman, “'The Oratory, Novr. 10, 1867”, The Genius of Newman(1914), by Wilfrid Ward, Vol II, Ch. 26, http://www.newmanreader.org/biography/ward/volume2/chapter26.html”]http://www.newmanreader.org/biography/ward/volume2/chapter26.html
]
St. Catherine of Sienna on obedience…

“He is insane who rises or acts contrary to this Vicar who holds the keys of the blood of Christ crucified. Even if he was a demon incarnate, I should not raise my head against him, but always grovel and ask for the blood out of mercy. And don’t pay attention to what the demon proposes to you and you propose under the color of virtue, that is to say to want to do justice against evil pastors regarding their fault. Don’t trust the demon: don’t try to do justice about what does not concern you. God wants neither you nor anyone else to set themselves up as a righter of the wrongs of His ministers. He reserves judgment to Himself, and He reserves it to His Vicar; and if the Vicar does not do justice, we should wait for the punishment and correction on the part of the sovereign judge, God Eternal.” (Letters, Vol. I. Letter No. 28).
 
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