R
roseyelephant
Guest
I sound very ignorant but what resources did the early church fathers have as a basis for their faith?
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R
roseyelephant
Guest
Thank you!
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1ke
Guest
What about it? You will have to be more specific.
It says we are saved by grace, a fact no Catholic would argue.
It says here “through faith”. It does not say “through faith alone”. To the contrary, James 2:14-26 makes it plain this is not the case when he asks “can faith save you?” And 1 Peter 3:21 points to the saving grace of baptism.
So, you see, it isn’t quite as simple as you make it out to be if you are proposing “faith alone” as supported by the Bible.
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1ke
Guest
They had the Old Testament scriptures, various amounts of the New Testament scriptures— not all communities has all of the books that now comprise the New Testament and moreover many had books that are not included in the final canon. They had letters from the first and second century bishops (such as Ignatius of Antioch), they had catechisms such as the Didache. It is the early bishops who became know as the Early Church Fathers.
Most important they had the living teaching authority of the Church vested in the bishops, because a great deal was indeed not written down nor did all communities have all of the writings that were written down and read in the liturgy.
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V
Vonsalza
Guest
Ephesians is in the Catholic bible too.What about Ephesians 2:8-10 regarding salvation? Thank you for all your answers.
The challenge in to create a soteriology (doctrine of salvation) that synergizes ALL of scripture. Faith alone and Works alone both fail to perform this task.
Hope ya find what you’re looking for.
T
thistle
Guest
I agree with others that there are too many questions and the thread will just get messy. Start a thread for each topic you asked about then I will participate.
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FrancisPio
Guest
@roseyelephant
Well, did you get all the answers you were looking for yet?
Well, did you get all the answers you were looking for yet?
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curious_cath
Guest
Sacred tradition!
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jlhargus
Guest
Roseyelephant: The Bible also CLEARLY states that’s salvation is by faith alone and good works will follow, but do not determine salvation (explain Jesus saving the man during his crucifixion, for ex.).
Actually Rosey the bible never states salvation is by faith alone or good works will follow.
By God’s grace good works must follow otherwise it is dead faith and useless. Works are not automatic or forced but a free will choice. Good works perfect faith.
[Jms2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? Can faith save him? 15 …. 16 …. 17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.]
[Jms2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect ?]
[Jms2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified and not by faith only.
[Mt 25:14-30 Parable: A man went on a journey he left different amounts of money with three servants according to their abilities. The 1st servant invested and made 100 fold. The second made 100 fold. The 3rd did not even earn so much as interest on his money but buried it. Point is they all had faith 1st and 2nd did something and increased what they had. The 3rd one did nothing with his faith, he had no works his faith was dead.
Faith is the initial grace, one also must repent, be baptized for forgiveness of sins, receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, as Peter teaches in Acts2:36-41.
[2Pt1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue and to virtue knowledge 6 And to knowledge temperance and to temperance patience and to patience godliness 7 And to godliness brotherly kindness and to brotherly kindness charity. 8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. 10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and[/b]election sure[/b] for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall.
CONTINUED
Actually Rosey the bible never states salvation is by faith alone or good works will follow.
By God’s grace good works must follow otherwise it is dead faith and useless. Works are not automatic or forced but a free will choice. Good works perfect faith.
[Jms2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? Can faith save him? 15 …. 16 …. 17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.]
[Jms2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect ?]
[Jms2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified and not by faith only.
[Mt 25:14-30 Parable: A man went on a journey he left different amounts of money with three servants according to their abilities. The 1st servant invested and made 100 fold. The second made 100 fold. The 3rd did not even earn so much as interest on his money but buried it. Point is they all had faith 1st and 2nd did something and increased what they had. The 3rd one did nothing with his faith, he had no works his faith was dead.
Faith is the initial grace, one also must repent, be baptized for forgiveness of sins, receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, as Peter teaches in Acts2:36-41.
[2Pt1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue and to virtue knowledge 6 And to knowledge temperance and to temperance patience and to patience godliness 7 And to godliness brotherly kindness and to brotherly kindness charity. 8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. 10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and[/b]election sure[/b] for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall.
CONTINUED
J
jlhargus
Guest
According to the Bible we will be judged by our works.
[Rev 22:12 And, behold I come quickly and my reward is with me to give every man according as his work shall be].
If faith alone should read, “according as his faith alone”, but scripture says, every man, according as his work=deeds.
[2Cor5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ that every one may receive the things done in his body according to that he hath done whether it be good or bad]
[1Pt1:17 And if ye call on the Father who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man’s work pass the time of your sojourning here in fear].
[Mt7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven] [If faith alone, should read, “but he that has faith alone”, but scripture says he that doeth=deeds.]
[[Mt7:22 Many will say to me in that day Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them I never knew you depart from me ye that work iniquity]
[Evidently these had faith alone=dead faith, They did many wonderful works but they also did evil works therefore not doing or obeying the will of the Father.
[Mt7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine and doeth them I will liken him unto a wise man which built his house upon a rock]
[Mt16:27 For the Son of man is to come with his angels in the glory of his Father and then he will repay every man for what he has done]
According to the Bible we will be judged by our deed.
[Rev 14:13 And I heard a voice from Heaven saying, Write: blessed are the dead who die in the Lord henceforth. Yes, says the Spirit, let them rest from their labors, for their works follow them]
[Jn5:27 and authority He gave him also to do judgment, because he is Son of Man. 28 Wonder not at this, because there doth come an hour in which all those in the tombs shall hear his voice, 29 and they shall come forth; those who did the good things to a rising again of life, and those who practiced the evil things to a rising again of judgment]
[Rev 22:12 And, behold I come quickly and my reward is with me to give every man according as his work shall be].
If faith alone should read, “according as his faith alone”, but scripture says, every man, according as his work=deeds.
[2Cor5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ that every one may receive the things done in his body according to that he hath done whether it be good or bad]
[1Pt1:17 And if ye call on the Father who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man’s work pass the time of your sojourning here in fear].
[Mt7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven] [If faith alone, should read, “but he that has faith alone”, but scripture says he that doeth=deeds.]
[[Mt7:22 Many will say to me in that day Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them I never knew you depart from me ye that work iniquity]
[Evidently these had faith alone=dead faith, They did many wonderful works but they also did evil works therefore not doing or obeying the will of the Father.
[Mt7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine and doeth them I will liken him unto a wise man which built his house upon a rock]
[Mt16:27 For the Son of man is to come with his angels in the glory of his Father and then he will repay every man for what he has done]
According to the Bible we will be judged by our deed.
[Rev 14:13 And I heard a voice from Heaven saying, Write: blessed are the dead who die in the Lord henceforth. Yes, says the Spirit, let them rest from their labors, for their works follow them]
[Jn5:27 and authority He gave him also to do judgment, because he is Son of Man. 28 Wonder not at this, because there doth come an hour in which all those in the tombs shall hear his voice, 29 and they shall come forth; those who did the good things to a rising again of life, and those who practiced the evil things to a rising again of judgment]
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