Being against same-sex marriage, assumed to be hateful

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Betty say’s “Procreation is not the only way marriages could serve a state interest. It would be incredibly beneficial for states to allow homosexual marriages which result in more adoptions.” She also say’s “So, why is it better for children to be adopted by homosexual couples than to remain within the foster care system? because the children are no longer being passed around from foster home to foster home…”
just a little clarification here, she makes the assumption children are in the foster system because there are no adoptive homes for them. Children are in the foster system because their parents can’t care for them and their parental rights have not been terminated. It’s next to impossible to terminate parental rights.
 
A working definition for Civil Marriage: A contract between two adults that forms a family bond and the rights that conveys, where there was no prior family bond existed. Usually stemming from a romantic coupling.
Why would you limit it to two adults? And why would you exclude prior family bonds? What do you mean by ‘family bonds’?

And does this mean that romantic coupling is not required?
 
As much as I enjoy a “princess bride” reference, I am using the word as intended. I can not be moved from my position by the use of reason.

If none of you are calling for gay marriage not be legalized. I don’t know what we are discussing. If your position it’s immoral but we must live with it civilly, we have reached an amnicable solution.
my position is that legalized SSM is discriminatory.
 
In a gay marriage the two involved are willing participants.
Are you of the position that adultery, which involves 2 willing participants, is moral?

If the respective spouses never find out, and thus no outside party is harmed, is adultery a moral option?
 
Hiw would this definition NOT exclude two brothers, two sisters, mother-daughter or father-son relationships? They could well have a strong commitment and already exist as a “familial” relationship. Why exclude them from enjoying economic benefits?

It is not clear to me that a society that eschews its crucial and legitimate interest in marriage (the only means by which new native-born citizens are created) is even capable of understanding what is the true “interest” it does have in marriage.

It is interesting that your “standard” for determining whether these relationships should be sanctioned is that they “may” cause harm, but your standard for same sex marriages are that they actually do. Since we do not know for certain that same sex marriages won’t cause harm, you should apply the same standard that you do to the above forms of marriage to same sex marriages. That is, refrain from advocating for same sex marriage because they “may cause harm.” Or include these others UNTIL it is shown that they actually do cause harm. Double standard going on here.

The above are not mere red herrings, because your redefinition for marriage allows these by definition. You are merely throwing in ad hoc stipulations because you don’t like the consequences of your own definition.

Explain to me how two brothers, two sisters, a mother and daughter, father and son marrying will cause any more harm than the marriage of a same sex couple, given that they are in a committed relationship, familial bonds are already present and they only seek economic benefits?

The problem here is that harm can only be assessed after the fact, so we don’t really know what actual harm may come about. Clearly, a redefinition of marriage to a nebulous “committed familial and economic bond” redefines the purpose or focus of marriage away from a relationship committed to having children who are the vulnerable third parties, (with no voice in the question,) and who are never mentioned by advocates of redefinition.

The question of harm is wrapped up in the issue of measuring it. How can anyone adequately measure the complex ramifications that tampering with the very basic social unit of society will bring about. Your claim of “no harm” is, at best, wild speculation and an assurance that means nothing more than “Everything will be fine,” despite the fact that you have absolutely no power to make it so nor credible knowledge that it actually will be.

Very diplomatic, but profoundly naive.
 
Chastity and homosexuality

2357
Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

2358
The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

2359
Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.
There you have it. Thanks for looking it up for everyone to see. 🙂

I believe this solves the issue for Catholics. I am curious, though, why there is continued debate on the matter. But, Catholics are not alone. Many Orthodox, for whatever reason, feel the need to question the Church teachings on homosexuality as well, even though those teachings are very clear. I find it strange to do this. 🤷
 
The golden rule is a moral “rule of thumb.” It isn’t a law nor is it a moral principle.

Do you understand the difference?
It is the moral principle that underpins most religions and philosophies.

Matthew 7:12
Do to others whatever you would have them do to you. This is the law and the prophets
.

Luke 10: 25-28
25 There was a scholar of the law who stood up to test him and said, “Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?”
26 Jesus said to him, “What is written in the law? How do you read it?”
27 He said in reply, “You shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, with all your being, with all your strength, and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.”
28 He replied to him, “You have answered correctly; do this and you will live.”
You shall not take vengeance or bear a grudge against your kinsfolk. Love your neighbor as yourself: I am the LORD.
—Leviticus 19:18

That which is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow. That is the whole Torah; the rest is the explanation; go and learn it.
—Talmud, Shabbat 31a Hillel the Elder

One should never do that to another which one regards as injurious to one’s own self. This, in brief, is the rule of dharma. Other behavior is due to selfish desires.
—Brihaspati, Mahabharata (Anusasana Parva, Section CXIII, Verse 8)

Zi gong (a disciple of Confucius) asked: “Is there any one word that could guide a person throughout life?”
The Master replied: “How about ‘shu’ [reciprocity]: never impose on others what you would not choose for yourself?”
–Confucius, Analects XV.24, tr. David Hinton

“…it has been shown that to injure anyone is never just anywhere.” - Socrates, in Plato’s Republic.

Hurt not others in ways that you yourself would find hurtful.
—Udanavarga 5:18

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Rule
 
Are you of the position that adultery, which involves 2 willing participants, is moral?

If the respective spouses never find out, and thus no outside party is harmed, is adultery a moral option?
I disagree with your premise. The other spouses are part of the immoral act. It’s 4 people that are involved.
 
A working definition for Civil Marriage: A contract between two adults that forms a family bond and the rights that conveys, where there was no prior family bond existed. Usually stemming from a romantic coupling.
The issues with this definition are numerous
  1. It does not properly stipulate why the “contract” needs to be between two people. The only reason it has been between two people traditionally is because it has been based on the sex act between a mating pair that has the potential to create life. If there is no connection to procreation, what legally valid reason exists for limiting the number of participants to two? The civil liberties of polyamorous relationships are being infringed for basically the same reasons you are now claiming gay couples are being discriminated against.
  2. On what basis are you excluding previous family bonds? The only reason would be because of blood relationship, but that is only important where the possibility of creating offspring exists. Same sex advocates are making the claim that fertility is not a necessary aspect of marriage so why should previous family bonds discriminate against, say, two brothers who seek to be married? Again discriminatory for reasons that you are citing currently discriminate against same sex couples. The fertility of the couple, according to you, shouldn’t be a factor. Why is it all of a sudden crucial to excluding brothers, sisters, mother-daughters, etc. who wish to be married under a redefinition.
  3. Usually “stemming from romantic” coupling does not function as a legal stipulation. Why include it? You will need to specify why "non-romantic” coupling will only sometimes be allowed and under what conditions. This is an attempt to make your definition “about sex” without coming out and simply saying it. If it is about sex, what is it about the sex act between gay partners that make it the basis for excluding other forms of coupling? If sex acts that are not ordered towards procreation are included, what difference does it make whether the couple is engaging in sex or not? What right does the law have to exclude any forms of coupleship or community if marriage is NOT about the power to procreate?
  4. What the heck is “a family bond?” Clearly, it means, under a redefinition of marriage, anyone with the willingness to “commit to each other” in a “loving relationship.” If the law is so open to the affectionate intentions of individuals under the guise of civil liberty, why, suddenly, become exclusionary of numbers beyond two or existing family relationships, especially when the latter are merely tying to formalize that relationship in the law to obtain benefits they will not be entitled to by your discriminatory definition of marriage?
Your definition is fraught with serious legal implications. If the current definition, based as it is on a biological reality, can be thrown out, your nebulous attempt will not stand for long. All it would take is one legal challenge.
 
I believe this solves the issue for Catholics. I am curious, though, why there is continued debate on the matter. But, Catholics are not alone. Many Orthodox, for whatever reason, feel the need to question the Church teachings on homosexuality as well, even though those teachings are very clear. I find it strange to do this. 🤷
I so find it odd as well. The teaching is very clear. The Catholic Church is never going to preform a homosexual marriage.

I don’t think that it is a debate about the dogma but rather how to live in a world that runs contrary to the dogma. Living kosher in a non Kosher world, to draw a parallel.
 
The issues with this definition are numerous
  1. It does not properly stipulate why the “contract” needs to be between two people. The only reason it has been between two people traditionally is because it has been based on the sex act between a mating pair that has the potential to create life. If there is no connection to procreation, what legally valid reason exists for limiting the number of participants to two? The civil liberties of polyamorous relationships are being infringed for basically the same reasons you are now claiming gay couples are being discriminated against.
  2. On what basis are you excluding previous family bonds? The only reason would be because of blood relationship, but that is only important where the possibility of creating offspring exists. Same sex advocates are making the claim that fertility is not a necessary aspect of marriage so why should previous family bonds discriminate against, say, two brothers who seek to be married? Again discriminatory for reasons that you are citing currently discriminate against same sex couples. The fertility of the couple, according to you, shouldn’t be a factor. Why is it all of a sudden crucial to excluding brothers, sisters, mother-daughters, etc. who wish to be married under a redefinition.
  3. Usually “stemming from romantic” coupling does not function as a legal stipulation. Why include it? You will need to specify why "non-romantic” coupling will only sometimes be allowed and under what conditions. This is an attempt to make your definition “about sex” without coming out and simply saying it. If it is about sex, what is it about the sex act between gay partners that make it the basis for excluding other forms of coupling? If sex acts that are not ordered towards procreation are included, what difference does it make whether the couple is engaging in sex or not? What right does the law have to exclude any forms of coupleship or community if marriage is NOT about the power to procreate?
  4. What the heck is “a family bond?” Clearly, it means, under a redefinition of marriage, anyone with the willingness to “commit to each other” in a “loving relationship.” If the law is so open to the affectionate intentions of individuals under the guise of civil liberty, why, suddenly, become exclusionary of numbers beyond two or existing family relationships, especially when the latter are merely tying to formalize that relationship in the law to obtain benefits they will not be entitled to by your discriminatory definition of marriage?
Your definition is fraught with serious legal implications. If the current definition, based as it is on a biological reality, can be thrown out, your nebulous attempt will not stand for long. All it would take is one legal challenge.
None of “has” to be anything. It is what we as a society deem it. There have been many iterations of Marriage through out the ages.

A biblical case for incest can even be made I don’t think most people are calling for it. ( offspring of Adam and Eve, Lot’s daughters) Polygamy is through out the Old Testament, concubines as well.

Before gay marriage, homosexuals would “adopt” a spouse so they would be able to have “next of kin” legal rights. It didn’t stop adoptions or corrupt them beyond repair.
 
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