Being and personage

  • Thread starter Thread starter billcu1
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
B

billcu1

Guest
Ok God is one being the unmoved mover. And contemplates the ultimate contemplation. Himself contemplating. Now God is one being; but three persons. What is this personage thing? I have trouble with it. Aristotle said God is the ultimate divinity we can recognize. And what is the “Five Ways” ? Never heard of it.

🤷
 
billcu1 said:
Ok God is one being the unmoved mover. And contemplates the ultimate contemplation. Himself contemplating. Now God is one being; but three persons. What is this personage thing? I have trouble with it. Aristotle said God is the ultimate divinity we can recognize. And what is the “Five Ways” ? Never heard of it.

🤷
Click to expand...
The Trinity is absolutely simple, one divine nature, one will, one mind. There are three persons distinct by their relations of origin.

Catechism of the Catholic Church:

253 The Trinity is One. We do not confess three Gods, but one God in three persons, the “consubstantial Trinity”.83 The divine persons do not share the one divinity among themselves but each of them is God whole and entire: "The Father is that which the Son is, the Son that which the Father is, the Father and the Son that which the Holy Spirit is, i.e. by nature one God."84 In the words of the Fourth Lateran Council (1215), "Each of the persons is that supreme reality, viz., the divine substance, essence or nature."85

254 The divine persons are really distinct from one another. "God is one but not solitary."86 “Father”, “Son”, “Holy Spirit” are not simply names designating modalities of the divine being, for they are really distinct from one another: * "He is not the Father who is the Son, nor is the Son he who is the Father, nor is the Holy Spirit he who is the Father or the Son."87 * They are distinct from one another in their relations of origin: "It is the Father who generates, the Son who is begotten, and the Holy Spirit who proceeds."88 * The divine Unity is Triune.

255 The divine persons are relative to one another. Because it does not divide the divine unity, the real distinction of the persons from one another resides solely in the relationships which relate them to one another: "In the relational names of the persons the Father is related to the Son, the Son to the Father, and the Holy Spirit to both. While they are called three persons in view of their relations, we believe in one nature or substance."89 Indeed "everything (in them) is one where there is no opposition of relationship."90 "Because of that unity the Father is wholly in the Son and wholly in the Holy Spirit; the Son is wholly in the Father and wholly in the Holy Spirit; the Holy Spirit is wholly in the Father and wholly in the Son."91

St. Thomas Aquinas wrote of the five ways in Summa Theologica:

    • the unmoved mover
    • the first cause
    • the argument from contingency
    • the argument from degree
    • the teleological argument (“argument from design”)
 
billcu1 said:
What is this personage thing?
Click to expand...
This is the way I’ve heard it explained: You are a human being, that is what you are. Your name is Bill (I assume), that is who you are. You are one person in one being. On the other hand, God is three persons in one spiritual being. God is what he is, Father, Son and Holy Spirit are who God is. That may not be perfectly explained but it gets to the gist of it.
 
Vico said:
The Trinity is absolutely simple, one divine nature, one will, one mind. There are three persons distinct by their relations of origin.

Catechism of the Catholic Church:

253 The Trinity is One. We do not confess three Gods, but one God in three persons, the “consubstantial Trinity”.83 The divine persons do not share the one divinity among themselves but each of them is God whole and entire: "The Father is that which the Son is, the Son that which the Father is, the Father and the Son that which the Holy Spirit is, i.e. by nature one God."84 In the words of the Fourth Lateran Council (1215), "Each of the persons is that supreme reality, viz., the divine substance, essence or nature."85

254 The divine persons are really distinct from one another. "God is one but not solitary."86 “Father”, “Son”, “Holy Spirit” are not simply names designating modalities of the divine being, for they are really distinct from one another: * "He is not the Father who is the Son, nor is the Son he who is the Father, nor is the Holy Spirit he who is the Father or the Son."87 * They are distinct from one another in their relations of origin: "It is the Father who generates, the Son who is begotten, and the Holy Spirit who proceeds."88 * The divine Unity is Triune.

255 The divine persons are relative to one another. Because it does not divide the divine unity, the real distinction of the persons from one another resides solely in the relationships which relate them to one another: "In the relational names of the persons the Father is related to the Son, the Son to the Father, and the Holy Spirit to both. While they are called three persons in view of their relations, we believe in one nature or substance."89 Indeed "everything (in them) is one where there is no opposition of relationship."90 "Because of that unity the Father is wholly in the Son and wholly in the Holy Spirit; the Son is wholly in the Father and wholly in the Holy Spirit; the Holy Spirit is wholly in the Father and wholly in the Son."91

St. Thomas Aquinas wrote of the five ways in Summa Theologica:

    • the unmoved mover
    • the first cause
    • the argument from contingency
    • the argument from degree
    • the teleological argument (“argument from design”)
Click to expand...

  1. Oh OK. Well in mentioning Aristotle, I am(mentioning) Aquinas too. I know of the Summa but not the “5 ways”. I see.
 
seagal said:
This is the way I’ve heard it explained: You are a human being, that is what you are. Your name is Bill (I assume), that is who you are. You are one person in one being. On the other hand, God is three persons in one spiritual being. God is what he is, Father, Son and Holy Spirit are who God is. That may not be perfectly explained but it gets to the gist of it.
Click to expand...
OK, Yes my name is “Bill”. Yes you guessed right! Is personage a term from Aristotle or is that strictly Thomism? Still a bit confused. In who and what too. Many mystery sides of religion speak of one coming from another. If I am understanding them right. Aquinas if I am understanding and remembering right; speaks of “inward progression” If that’s correct. SO if I called myself three different names, Would I have three personages?
 
billcu1 said:
. . . SO if I called myself three different names, Would I have three personages?
Click to expand...
No. We’re talking about Divine personages, so analogies will always fail as far as I am concerned.

That said, perhaps if you consider that you and I are expressions of one humanity, You are self to my being other, as you are other to my self. It’s probably best to consider yourself as being analogous to the Son. The two of us communicating here is separate from either of us but proceeds from and joins us; if this here that you are reading were a giving to you of what I am and a person in itself, it could represent the Holy Spirit. Again there would be one Being - God, each person giving to the other everything they are and the other returning it in a mutual eternal inspiration-expiration of being.

Make sense? Probably not. I might be able to do better, but still wouldn’t be able to match what’s been said by learned people over the last two millennia. So, why not just stick to the official sources.

The characters are sort of annoying, but the reader, if they haven’t, may want to check out “St Patrick’s Bad Analogies”: youtu.be/KQLfgaUoQCw
 
Aloysium said:
No. We’re talking about Divine personages, so analogies will always fail as far as I am concerned.

That said, perhaps if you consider that you and I are expressions of one humanity, You are self to my being other, as you are other to my self. It’s probably best to consider yourself as being analogous to the Son. The two of us communicating here is separate from either of us but proceeds from and joins us; if this here that you are reading were a giving to you of what I am and a person in itself, it could represent the Holy Spirit. Again there would be one Being - God, each person giving to the other everything they are and the other returning it in a mutual eternal inspiration-expiration of being.

Make sense? Probably not. I might be able to do better, but still wouldn’t be able to match what’s been said by learned people over the last two millennia. So, why not just stick to the official sources.

The characters are sort of annoying, but the reader, if they haven’t, may want to check out “St Patrick’s Bad Analogies”: youtu.be/KQLfgaUoQCw
Click to expand...
It would be easier to understand by understanding of the terms your using. An “expression” of something I have never came across “expression”. “Inspiration-experation” I have never seen. I am assuming this maybe from “Catagories” or something Aristotle originated and Thomism has adopted. “Self” in the context you mentioned I am not sure about. But I will look over your post better tomorrow. I am a bit outta time right now.

God Bless
 
billcu1 said:
… . An “expression” of something I have never came across “expression”. “Inspiration-experation” I have never seen. . .
Click to expand...
Expression is used here in the sense of something that manifests or embodies something else.
If we consider humanity as a species, and this is where it gets tricky, fallen in Adam and redeemed in Christ, the one true Vine, then we may think of ourselves as individual expressions, representations, manifestations of that humanity.
Although we each have our own talents and crosses to bear, we are all the same as brothers and sisters in relation to God and each other.

I doubt you will ever see “Inspiration-experation”. “Inspiration-expiration” is another story. 😉
It’s what happens when one breathes.
“Spirit” is derived from the Latin “spiritus” meaning breath.
God breathed His spirit into the nostrils of the dust He had moulded, thereby creating Adam.
It’s meant to represent the Holy Spirit.
 
Aloysium said:
Expression is used here in the sense of something that manifests or embodies something else.
If we consider humanity as a species, and this is where it gets tricky, fallen in Adam and redeemed in Christ, the one true Vine, then we may think of ourselves as individual expressions, representations, manifestations of that humanity.
Although we each have our own talents and crosses to bear, we are all the same as brothers and sisters in relation to God and each other.

I doubt you will ever see “Inspiration-experation”. “Inspiration-expiration” is another story. 😉
It’s what happens when one breathes.
“Spirit” is derived from the Latin “spiritus” meaning breath.
God breathed His spirit into the nostrils of the dust He had moulded, thereby creating Adam.
It’s meant to represent the Holy Spirit.
Click to expand...
I think I see. So when the scriptures says “there are three that sit on the throne”. What does that mean? There’s only one being. There’s something there being said. I’ve understood it as three persons with one nature. Like three people share the same nature, human.
 
billcu1 said:
I think I see. So when the scriptures says “there are three that sit on the throne”. What does that mean? There’s only one being. There’s something there being said. I’ve understood it as three persons with one nature. Like three people share the same nature, human.
Click to expand...
God is absolutely simple, there is not division in God.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top