Belief in God as properly basic

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I’ve looked a bit recently into the way in which William Lane Craig and Alvin Plantinga say that belief in God is properly basic, and it is somewhat concerning. I have heard it said by them that the proper basically of belief in God and in Christianity based on the witness of the Spirit can act as a defeater of any potential defeater that could possibly be presented against it. This mens that according to them, no amount of publicly available evidence could make it irrational for them to believe in God, even in principle. This seems hypocritical at best. Once you say this about your belief in God, you have absolutely no leg to stand on in order to:
  1. Claim that you are seeking the truth.
  2. Accuse atheist X of being closed-minded, having dogmatic naturalistic assumptions, etc.
  3. Mock the idea that faith is belief in spite of evidence.
Now at the same time, I am somewhat sympathetic towards their reasoning. You do have people who were born in the Soviet Union who because of government censorship were never exposed to arguments for the existence of God, and I agree that God wouldn’t make it irrational to believe in Him. I also agree that a private revelation could make it rational for somebody to believe in God from their epistemic position. But there’s got to be a middle ground. Saying that no amount of publicly available evidence could change a belief, even in principle, is simply to commit intellectual suicide. If you are sincerely seeking the truth, you should be willing to give up even your most cherished beliefs if they are shown to be false. Indeed, that is exactly what seeking the truth is.

What is the Catholic position on this? Whatever it is, how are we to defend it? If it is closer to the evidentialist side of the spectrum, how are we to deal with the examples of people born in the Soviet Union who is never exposed to arguments for the existence of God? If it is closer to Craig’s side of the spectrum, how are we to distinguish it from fideism and how are we to make it consistent to being open-minded to the truth and holding non-believers by said standard?
 
I’ve looked a bit recently into the way in which William Lane Craig and Alvin Plantinga say that belief in God is properly basic, and it is somewhat concerning. I have heard it said by them that the proper basically of belief in God and in Christianity based on the witness of the Spirit can act as a defeater of any potential defeater that could possibly be presented against it. This mens that according to them, no amount of publicly available evidence could make it irrational for them to believe in God, even in principle. This seems hypocritical at best. Once you say this about your belief in God, you have absolutely no leg to stand on in order to:
  1. Claim that you are seeking the truth.
  2. Accuse atheist X of being closed-minded, having dogmatic naturalistic assumptions, etc.
  3. Mock the idea that faith is belief in spite of evidence.
I don’t think it’s quite that bad. (However, I have not read Plantinga, and what I know is garnered from second-hand mentions, etc.) The idea seems to posit a sensus divinitatis, a sense of the divine, as a “sixth sense” by which people acquire knowledge of God, so that the average believer knows God like he knows other minds. It’s pretty difficult to prove that someone else has a mind and is not an automaton–but that’s a common sense conclusion that we would like to accept (and it tells against a philosophy to fail to account for it).

It is a theory of warranted belief. But it doesn’t act as proof for the purposes of dialectic; I cannot, for instance, say that I sense God, so you should believe that he exists, and expect you to accept that as an argument. The conclusion is epistemological: is Christian belief rational? (Some rationalists, and I guess a lot of popular atheism, might equate rationally held belief with belief that you can demonstrate to other people. But from an epistemological perspective that is a mess; it can be rational for you to believe something in some cases where you cannot convince anyone else for it, or even provide an argument.) They are essentially claiming that, given that God exists, believers are not “believing in spite of evidence,” but are rather believing by means of the sensus divinitatis.

The concern is correct. One task of the Christian philosopher is to address the question of Christian belief and give an explanation why, given that most Christians are not philosophers, Christians could be warranted in believing in God. I would disagree with the particular approach on some grounds, in that I think that the proper mode of warranted Christian belief has more to do with proper authority and witness than some interior sense of God (which, I believe, some believers experience veridically, but has not really been a part of my faith and so, in my view, “leaves something out”).

There is some difficulty, I think, in arguing that one can have a subjective experience of God that warrants belief, but that all atheism is irrational off the bat. It just seems like a strong conclusion for me, and I have doubts about whether it can be rigorously substantiated, but Plantinga said something to that effect in a recent NYT interview with, I think, Gary Gutting. Again, I would have to read him to see if I can assess it.

There may also be some Wittgensteinian concerns about whether there could be any sort of feeling of knowledge or certainty. But that could probably be avoided.

I recently found a cheap copy of Linda Zagzebski’s collection Rational Faith: Catholic Responses to Reformed Epistemology, though I haven’t read it yet (and I probably should read Plantinga first). It is exciting because it includes an essay by James Ross… a fantastic Catholic author who approached some of these issues.
 
I’ve looked a bit recently into the way in which William Lane Craig and Alvin Plantinga say that belief in God is properly basic, and it is somewhat concerning. I have heard it said by them that the proper basically of belief in God and in Christianity based on the witness of the Spirit can act as a defeater of any potential defeater that could possibly be presented against it.
Don’t know what they mean by " witness of the Spirit." Why are you so interested in these men or what they say or think?
This mens that according to them, no amount of publicly available evidence could make it irrational for them to believe in God, even in principle. This seems hypocritical at best.
I take this to mean simply that there cannot be any rational argument which could be made which would invalidate belief in the existence of God. If that is the correct interpretation, then I agree. There is no rational argument which would invalidate my belief in the existence of God.

How is it hypocritical?
Once you say this about your belief in God, you have absolutely no leg to stand on in order to:
  1. Claim that you are seeking the truth.
What if you already have the truth?
  1. Accuse atheist X of being closed-minded, having dogmatic naturalistic assumptions, etc.
Well, we don’t know if the A’s are closed-minded or not, etc., though we may suspect it.
  1. Mock the idea that faith is belief in spite of evidence.
If one has the preambles of Faith, then it is not blind or credulous. Our reasons or preambles do not have to be proven valid to someone else’s epistometic system. For example, if one accepts only scientific truths as valid, then it would be impossible for me to prove the validity of my preambles. As a matter of fact, my preambles are personal to me and I don’t have to justify them to anyone.
… Saying that no amount of publicly available evidence could change a belief, even in principle, is simply to commit intellectual suicide. If you are sincerely seeking the truth, you should be willing to give up even your most cherished beliefs if they are shown to be false. Indeed, that is exactly what seeking the truth is.
Catholics already have the truth, so we do not ( and must not subject ) subject our faith to any test ( that would, in itself, be a serious sin against faith). I would feel no shame in telling anyone that I already posses the truth and that I will not entertain arguments opposed to it. In fact, I have done so on these forums many times ( to the disgust of many), and I don’t apologize for it. My reason is this. I posses the the Truth and nothing can contradict the Truth.
What is the Catholic position on this? Whatever it is, how are we to defend it? If it is closer to the evidentialist side of the spectrum, how are we to deal with the examples of people born in the Soviet Union who is never exposed to arguments for the existence of God? If it is closer to Craig’s side of the spectrum, how are we to distinguish it from fideism and how are we to make it consistent to being open-minded to the truth and holding non-believers by said standard?
I have given my opinion. And it is true, Catholics are never allowed to entertain arguments against the Faith.

The people in the Soviet Union kept their faith alive throughout the Communist erea. At least many of them did. As to the others, the Churches have been very active since the Soviet Union fell apart. And for the ones who are still ignorant, I guess God will take care of them.

Don’t really understand what your last sentence means.

Linus2nd
 
Shooting from the hip here…

A properly basic belief can, I believe, be overriden. My belief that I am sitting at a computer is properly basic, but I could be convinced that I were dreaming by certain other evidence. 🤷
 
If you are sincerely seeking the truth, you should be willing to give up even your most cherished beliefs if they are shown to be false. Indeed, that is exactly what seeking the truth is.
This sounds like one of my arguments. Huh? But what you are failing to grasp here is that in seeking the absolute truth we are presupposing God.
 
This sounds like one of my arguments. Huh? But what you are failing to grasp here is that in seeking the absolute truth we are presupposing God.
Now your suggesting for the sake of a position of leverage, there is no God,
 
This sounds like one of my arguments. Huh? But what you are failing to grasp here is that in seeking the absolute truth we are presupposing God.
No. We are assuming that there is something absolutely true. Such an assumption is eminently logical, since the truth of its denial implies a contradiction.
 
I’ve looked a bit recently into the way in which William Lane Craig and Alvin Plantinga say that belief in God is properly basic, and it is somewhat concerning. I have heard it said by them that the proper basically of belief in God and in Christianity based on the witness of the Spirit can act as a defeater of any potential defeater that could possibly be presented against it. This mens that according to them, no amount of publicly available evidence could make it irrational for them to believe in God, even in principle. This seems hypocritical at best. Once you say this about your belief in God, you have absolutely no leg to stand on in order to:
  1. Claim that you are seeking the truth.
  2. Accuse atheist X of being closed-minded, having dogmatic naturalistic assumptions, etc.
  3. Mock the idea that faith is belief in spite of evidence.
Now at the same time, I am somewhat sympathetic towards their reasoning. You do have people who were born in the Soviet Union who because of government censorship were never exposed to arguments for the existence of God, and I agree that God wouldn’t make it irrational to believe in Him. I also agree that a private revelation could make it rational for somebody to believe in God from their epistemic position. But there’s got to be a middle ground. Saying that no amount of publicly available evidence could change a belief, even in principle, is simply to commit intellectual suicide. If you are sincerely seeking the truth, you should be willing to give up even your most cherished beliefs if they are shown to be false. Indeed, that is exactly what seeking the truth is.

What is the Catholic position on this? Whatever it is, how are we to defend it? If it is closer to the evidentialist side of the spectrum, how are we to deal with the examples of people born in the Soviet Union who is never exposed to arguments for the existence of God? If it is closer to Craig’s side of the spectrum, how are we to distinguish it from fideism and how are we to make it consistent to being open-minded to the truth and holding non-believers by said standard?
Very nice post. The main question is why God doesn’t simply reveal himself to everybody showing the truth?
  1. He is not supposed so which means that this has never happened, because for example, searching the truth becomes meaningless for an intellect being once truth is revealed to him or her.
  2. Truth has several face and there are many Gods or God is single but he is evil since there are many religions around the world.
  3. There is one God and he has higher attention to one than another.
 
Very nice post. The main question is why God doesn’t simply reveal himself to everybody showing the truth?
  1. He is not supposed so which means that this has never happened, because for example, searching the truth becomes meaningless for an intellect being once truth is revealed to him or her.
  2. Truth has several face and there are many Gods or God is single but he is evil since there are many religions around the world.
  3. There is one God and he has higher attention to one than another.
God keeps Himself partially hidden such that all and only those who seek the truth will find it. Ironically, when people don’t bother looking into evidence and demand that God just appear to them, they are demonstrating the reason why God doesn’t just appear to everyone.
 
God keeps Himself partially hidden such that all and only those who seek the truth will find it. Ironically, when people don’t bother looking into evidence and demand that God just appear to them, they are demonstrating the reason why God doesn’t just appear to everyone.
That I agree with it since sincerity in searching the truth is very important thing.
 
That I agree with it since sincerity in searching the truth is very important thing.
Indeed. In general, it is “very important things” that are most liable to become idols.
 
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Counterpoint:
This sounds like one of my arguments. Huh? But what you are failing to grasp here is that in seeking the absolute truth we are presupposing God.
Now your suggesting for the sake of a position of leverage, there is no God,
Huh?
 
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Counterpoint:
This sounds like one of my arguments. Huh? But what you are failing to grasp here is that in seeking the absolute truth we are presupposing God.
No. We are assuming that there is something absolutely true. Such an assumption is eminently logical, since the truth of its denial implies a contradiction.
What exactly are you taking issue with in my response?
 
The suggestion that a belief in ultimate reality entails a belief in God.
I made the argument that in seeking the absolute truth we are presupposing God. Why? Because we are presupposing a God’s-eye view of the world.

Do you disagree with that?
 
I made the argument that in seeking the absolute truth we are presupposing God. Why? Because we are presupposing a God’s-eye view of the world.

Do you disagree with that?
Yes. When I say “the moon on the other side of Jupiter is round”, I am not assuming a God’s eye view of the world exists. And yet my statement could be true or false, depending on what the world is like – even though no person can currently see the moon I’m talking about.
 
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Counterpoint:
I made the argument that in seeking the absolute truth
we are presupposing God. Why? Because we are presupposing a God’s-eye view of the world.

Do you disagree with that?

Yes. When I say “the moon on the other side of Jupiter is round”, I am not assuming a God’s eye view of the world exists. And yet my statement could be true or false, depending on what the world is like – even though no person can currently see the moon I’m talking about.
I said the “absolute truth,” not “a truth.”
 
I said the “absolute truth,” not “a truth.”
I have no idea what the difference between absolute truth and truth is. If “God exists” is true, it is true in precisely the same way that “the cat is fat” is true. It simply means that the way the world is corresponds to the relevant statement.
 
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Counterpoint:
I said the “absolute truth,” not “a truth.”
I have no idea what the difference between absolute truth and truth is. If “God exists” is true, it is true in precisely the same way that “the cat is fat” is true. It simply means that the way the world is corresponds to the relevant statement.
“Pilate saith unto him, What is truth?” John 18:38
There are differing claims on such questions as what constitutes truth: what things are truthbearers capable of being true or false; how to define and identify truth; the roles that faith-based and empirically based knowledge play; and whether truth is subjective or objective, relative or absolute. (source: Wikipedia: Truth)
The Absolute is the concept of an unconditional reality which transcends limited, conditional, everyday existence. It is sometimes used as an alternate term for “God” or “the Divine”[1] (source: Absolute (philosophy)
 
But what you are failing to grasp here is that in seeking the absolute truth we are presupposing God.
By the doctrine of the transcendentals, God is Truth (or absolute truth). But that is an ontological rather than epistemic claim. A proposition disclosing “God exists” need not itself be an absolute truth, in particular because in knowing its truth value we still do not know what it means for God to exist (ie. God’s nature). The proposition is notional.

That is my take on this little dispute, anyway.

Regarding the claim you make here, to clarify: are you saying that you’ve made an argument that if someone says, “I am a seeker of absolute truth,” then he is presupposing the existence of God? I don’t see why that would be the case. I believe God exists (and that demonstrations exist to show that), so I believe that there is such a thing as “absolute truth.” But someone who does not grasp that God exists and is purely actual, that actuality is convertible with truth, etc. need not be presupposing the existence of God as classically understood, for he could say he is seeking absolute truth without having a concept of God.

On another plausible interpretation of absolute truth, it is simply the “most fundamental” truth of all. If God exists, then God is absolute truth. But if, say, materialism were true, and God did not exist, then that would probably qualify as “the absolute truth.”
 
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