Belief, knowledge or faith?

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If someone asks me if I believe in God, I am hesitant to give a simple reply of yes. Similarly I don’t like to ask others if they believe in God. This is because I feel the use of the word “belief” holds a world of implications. I think it contains the seeds of relativism, putting the Catholic faith on the same level as belief in anything else, be it fairies at the bottom of the garden or whatever. A belief can change in the light of new information or changing priorities and can be quite enculturated. In contrast to this, my Catholic faith, which is of course a gift from God, is not subject to personal whim. It cannot be adjusted to suit my convenience or desired life style. It is universal in nature and does not rely on cultural norms for credibility. The only change involved is me learning more about it which is a never ending task. Belief is simply the logical outcome of the gift of faith and the acquiring of knowledge, and is the saying yes to God. Should the real question be “Do you know about God?”, or maybe, “Have you faith in God?”. After all, I know God is there so why ask a question that doesn’t take that as a given? How do you deal with this issue when talking with people with no faith? Or am I confused about nothing?
 
Faith does involve knowledge of God, and not merely knowledge about Him. Aquinas characterized faith as a relatively dim foretaste of the immediate knowledge we’ll receive via the Beatific Vision, when God is seen “face to face”. The “knowledge of God” and the communion that this knowledge realizes in us, is what Jesus came to reveal and establish. Man was made for it and is lost without it, whether or not he realizes this at any point in time. But to convince others of this knowledge, to convince them of the reality of God, is not so easy a task. Prayer and empathy and love, combined with the knowledge you’ve gleaned over the years, are the best approaches. God must open and change the heart in the end.
 
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I I think belief… putting the Catholic faith on the same level as belief in anything else, be it fairies at the bottom of the garden or whatever.
Yes I see faith on the same foundation. However what you have left out is it is “reasonable” belief or credible belief. If you compare your Faith to silly things like fairies then you clearly already know these other beliefs are not worthy of credible belief for some “reason” dont you?

Why not compare Christian belief to Jewish belief. Do you think this is silly, that anyone who believes in Judaism is little better than fairie believers? Of course not.
You accept Judaism or Protestantism is credible enough to be worthy of belief too.

So once we talk about credible, reasonable belief I think your problem disappears - it does for me.
Look up “motives of credibility”: eg


http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05752c.htm
 
Thank you - that article was useful. The problem I come across is meeting people whose only certainty is the idea that nothing can be believed with certainty. They think that I have a right to my faith but that it is personal to me and is not any more valid than anyone else’s ideas. All churches are equal etc. I am perhaps playing with words but I want to get the message across to them that Christianity is not just a whim or a personal comfort zone. It’s real. I don’t want to legitimize their attitude by just saying this is my belief.
 
I think if you are going to use a criterion of ‘validity’ for comparison you will have to acknowledge that all things beloved on the basis of faith are less valid that this that can be demonstrated by observation. You may have faith that angels exist but you cannot claim the faith is a valid observation. You might claim it is ‘valid faith’ but then you would need to be able to establish that some things believed on faith are ‘invalid faith’. And that cannot be done, since if you have faith, you have it, and it is only believed on faith the the absence of positive observations confirming it.
 
A belief can change in the light of new information or changing priorities and can be quite enculturated. In contrast to this, my Catholic faith, which is of course a gift from God, is not subject to personal whim.
You make an excellent point. I have felt this way myself many times when people ask the dreaded question: “Do you believe in God?” Nowadays I tend to answer something like “Yes, but not in the sense that you understand that term.” Or, similarly, I sometimes go for: “I don’t believe in God as you use the term ‘believe’. Rather, I know my connection to God, which is a certainty, and I act out of that certainty.” In any case, I provide an answer that prevents the inquirer from projecting their assumptions about what belief is, onto me. This tends to ruffle a few feathers, but I can live with that. I’d rather endure the consequences of being “unpleasant” or “difficult” than accomodate a conversation in which my faith is made a topic of discussion as if it was something arbitrary that I baselessly put my confidence in. As I see it, I’m doing the enquirer (typically a non-believer) a favor by confronting him with his greatest misunderstanding, which is that he (the unbeliever) knows what faith is, and that it is something that he, in his knowledge, has rejected it while I have accepted it. The truth is that he does not know what faith is, because whoever knows it cannot reject it.
They think that I have a right to my faith but that it is personal to me and is not any more valid than anyone else’s ideas. All churches are equal etc. I am perhaps playing with words but I want to get the message across to them that Christianity is not just a whim or a personal comfort zone. It’s real. I don’t want to legitimize their attitude by just saying this is my belief.
Precisely. I couldn’t have said it better. The authentic believer pretty much has a duty to refrain from legitimizing the view that belief is an arbitrary choice, and a duty, when put on the spot, to actively object to it. To go along with the “arbitrarization” of one’s belief is not only insincere, but actually harmful to one’s own faith, because you’re adopting (if only for the purpose and duration of the conversation) the other’s hugely fallacious view of faith. As I said, I’d rather endure unpleasantness in a conversation than submit to the implicit debasement of faith in a “reasonable talk”.

P.S. In addition it is quite problematic that the inquiring person typically believes quite firmly that by allowing you your “beliefs” they have been sufficiently “nice” to be entitled thereafter to a certain amount of skepticism (implicit or explicit), even if you (as the believer) had given no indication to be interested in a conversation of that sort. I call this the “tyranny of civility”, which basically means: “If I’ve been civilized to you, I have the right to subject your views to my skepticism, and you must bear and engage that with reciprocal civility.” I personally refuse to subject to this subtle tyranny, which tends to surprise people.
 
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I think this is a great point op, and other posters. Once the language gets modified things get confused. Abortion is “pro-choice”. It’s not a choice for the child… it’s removing the rights of a child so someone can have a convienience… Faith can get lumped into “religion”, which sort of puts into a distant box of all things not secular. This doesn’t quantify it at all, and I believe adds to confusion etc. So I guess ultimately it’s belief, faith and knowledge…?
 
Yes language is important - the road to hell is paved with euphemisms
 
The problem I come across is meeting people whose only certainty is the idea that nothing can be believed with certainty. They think that I have a right to my faith but that it is personal to me and is not any more valid than anyone else’s ideas. All churches are equal etc. I am perhaps playing with words but I want to get the message across to them that Christianity is not just a whim or a personal comfort zone. It’s real. I don’t want to legitimize their attitude by just saying this is my belief.
There is quite a lot to unpack there!
The difficulty for you is that Catholic Tradition since Aquinas is very clear that “faith” is quite different from “knowledge”. While both give “certitude” the nature of the certitude is fundamentally different.

“knowledge” as derived from the senses/reason/nature is considered “objective”. That is, all men and women of unbiased and strong intellect and education cannot but agree re the truths of nature and the temporal order. (Of course there is significant disagreement because of the wounds due to the fall and the disparities of bias, desire, different cultures, education and intelligence).

The knowledge that comes from faith is different and its certitude comes from the affirmations/consent of the heart not the assent of the mind to clear proof. That is, the certitude derives from our confidence in the one who reveals these truths.
This certitude is clearly “subjective” or better, personal. We cannot expect others to see it our way if such truths have not been revealed to them by God. Clearly simply telling them these truths of faith will not of itself convince - unlike the truth of natural reason and the world.

So really, in this sense your faith and the worldview that derives from it is unprovable to others and it is personal to you and your faith community.

That is not a problem for me to be honest.
 
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Thank you Sophie111 you have given me lots of food. I am out of time to reply but may return tomorrow. God bless
 
Let your yes be yes and your no be no.

No amount of intellectualising will convince someone of the existence of God and no amount of reading will erase or increase my belief borne of experience.
 
Thanks Lee1 and the other responders for their thoughtful contributions.

I agree that reading and intellectualising does not necessarily result in the gift of faith. I suppose that my concern is that a lot of people are not disposed to hear the message of Christ maybe because of something in their lives, something they have been taught, their upbringing, or other obstacle. My goal in conversations about God is to try to remove obstacles if I come across them, hopefully by example and maybe by talking.

If someone is to hear the call of God, it is important that they be confident from an intellectual position that belief in God is entirely reasonable. Otherwise, they will not be able to withstand the lure of the world and the misinformation that is everywhere. This requires reading and study.

I feel that an open minded pursuit of truth will eventually lead you to Christ and His Church as a logical conclusion. So many of us, including me, have pride, personal agendas, prejudices, likes and dislikes, etc. that make it hard to surrender to God’s will for us. Once we honestly and humbly knock on the door to heaven, I would think that Jesus will open it to us, but we have to do our part to get there first. I like the idea of trying to remove obstacles on anyone’s path to that place.

The other consideration is that reading about and studying our faith is fascinating and immensely satisfying.

God bless.
 
I understand, appreciate and respect your opinion.

Working in the vineyard is a noble thing to do.
 
if you are going to use a criterion of ‘validity’ for comparison you will have to acknowledge that all things beloved on the basis of faith are less valid that this that can be demonstrated by observation.
I normally ignore mistakes made by autocorrect, but I think there is a point here. Believed and beloved have a common root. They work out of a common field of ideas.

My inclination is to accept the arbitrariness of belief, rather than reject as the op and others desire. Validity is not based on repeeatable observation, but is more on the lines of love. Love is not based on calculation of pluses and minuses, but on a choice for someone for sometimes foggy reasons. Faith is a choice particular to me, there is no set of data that compels me and every other person to accept it. (Indeed, if there were an agreed set of data that determined who to marry, we would all marry the same person!)

Avery Dulles wrote an excellent book on Models of Faith that discusses belief and faith and how the term is used in theology. I would love to share his insights, but it has been quite a while since Iread it.
 
Argument from auto-correct award to you 🏆

Not sure about the marriage analogy. Mrs FiveLinden firmly believes there was only one person in the world who would choose me above all others, or, indeed, at all!
 
Yes, I believe in God. What’s so hard about answering that? Where is there relativism in that answer? Relativism might exist in the question, like “do you believe in a god”? (The implication that there are many gods to believe in), but the answer, “I believe in God”, is not a relativist answer.
 
Yes, I believe in God. What’s so hard about answering that? Where is there relativism in that answer? Relativism might exist in the question, like “do you believe in a god”? (The implication that there are many gods to believe in), but the answer, “I believe in God”, is not a relativist answer.
The creation of the universe is history. There is only one God worth searching for, and that is the creator of all that is seen and unseen.

.
 
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