Believable (mystical) testimonies from non-Catholics

[Mijoy2]

There are many Catholic testimonies/apparitions/visions etc etc where the visionary/see-er/witness-or seems extremely credible. We could list many. Of course the most predominant, the first that come to mind are the testimonies of many of the saints along with the testimonies of approved apparitions of the Blessed Mother.
I understand the churches teaching on these all being private revelation and we are not required to hold to them. So I ask that if there are any responses to this post, they are not along those lines. Again, I understand.

They are either fake (made up), of the devil, games the mind plays on us, or they are of God. I doubt most are fake (Lourdes, Fatima, Saints visions etc). The magnitude of the numbers of these are also quite startling and IMO lend credence to their authenticity. i.e. if they are evil minded people they are all worthy of Oscars.

However a search of other Christian testimonies reveals much the same. Although not “church-approved” (of course) again the stories of some (not all) appear to be 100% true to the one who witnessed the vision. Again, I believe (at least many) of these people are telling what they believe to be the truth in terms of what happened to them.

My dilemma is that these seem very credible from the Catholics as well as the non-Catholics. However none of the ‘Christian’ accounts either witness Mary or (even more startling) are pointed to Mary. Non of the ‘Christian’ accounts are instructed to go to Confession, none of the ‘Christian’ accounts are pointed to the Church. Many of the ‘Christian’ accounts refer to terms and phrases that firm up their doctrinal beliefs (use of phrases such as being saved or not being saved).

Why do I find this troubling one may ask. Because it may point to none being true. How do I come to this conclusion? If we rule out deliberate deceit (which as I pointed out I do, at least in many cases) it seems we must also rule out that they are from God. Why would God direct a mystical experience and allow contradiction? If Mary plays the role we believe her to play in Catholicism, why not, as part of the experience to the ‘Christian’ accounts, Does God not point the individual to her? Even more to the point, why allow the ‘Christian’ account individual to continue on his/her mistaken beliefs regarding salvation and justification?

This all doesn’t add up. It appears to me, there is one answer (again if we rule out deliberate deceit and rule out the devil). Delusion. The Catholic seer-ers see what their mind tells them to see based on their belief system. And the ‘Christian’ account individuals do the same. Their minds play tricks and confirms their beliefs. I am not stating this, I am tossing it out as a hypothesis.

What got me to the point of writing this post is that I was recently viewing Spiritdaily.com where the (Catholic) website points to many of these testimonials (Catholic and non-Catholic). I watched a believable testimony from some non-Catholics. A bit of further investigation brought me to source of one of these testimonies. It was an anti-Catholic website. very anti-Catholic.

Logic points here to a problem.

Thoughts?

 

[ProdglArchitect]

As with the existence of false religions, the existence of false testimonies does not disprove the existence of true testimonies.

There is substantial evidence, in the form of miracles and dramatic cultural shifts, that Lourdes and Fatima were both true, which lends credence to the truth of other Marian apparitions. Our Lady of Guadalupe being another big one that saw the conversion of an entire culture. Given that all of these apparitions, which are accompanied by real-world changes, point towards Catholicism, we can reasonably conclude that other testimonies which point to Catholicism are more worthy of belief than those that do not, especially considering that those which do not are rarely, if ever, accompanied by any sort of real sign.

Believable is a subjective term which is changeable based on personal perception. It’s not a good basis for discerning truth. I could make up a believable testimony right now and, to someone who doesn’t know I’m faking it, it could seem completely credible. That is why true apparitions and other mystical visions are generally accompanied by some sort of evidence, at least if they are for the general population. St. John Bosco’s dreams are a great example. I’ve just started reading a book about them and the more spiritual-focused dreams were lent credence by other prophetic visions which all came true.

On the other hand, some private revelation comes with no evidence. I once had a mystical experience of God’s presence and peace. There’s no real evidence for this apart form the fact that it brought about a massive shift in the direction of my life, and brought me back to the practice of my faith. Still, it wasn’t meant for everyone, only for me, so there’s no real sign to accompany it. I know it was real because I see what it has done in my life, but I wouldn’t expect you to believe it simply on my word. Most Protestant testimonies are similar in terms of their lack of external corroboration, and, while I don’t doubt that some of then are genuine experiences of God, ideally a true revelation would start them on the path to come home to the Church Christ founded.

 

[mrsdizzyd]

Others much wiser than I will come along and provide much better responses to your post, but there is one thing that stands out to me in terms of how you have framed your opening post. You seem to imply that all of Catholic approved private revelation (the only kind of private revelation we are allowed to discuss per the rules of the forum) involve Mary. Of course, they don’t all involve Mary. Marian apparitions are but one category of apparitions, visions, and experiences approved by the church.

Additionally, it is precisely because there is no way to prove those apparitions true, that the church considers belief in them to be an act of faith.

 

[Mijoy2]

Very interesting answer, thank you for it. “Accompanied by real-world changes”, although not a guarantee (nothing is guaranteed) of authenticity, is an interesting thought.

I haven’t given St John Bosco’s dreams much thought in recent years. Early on following my reversion i read of them and they gave a chilling account of hell. If you please, could you point me to the book? I was unaware of his visions being prophetic, let alone any of them coming true. Thanks Much!

 

[ProdglArchitect]

I haven’t given St John Bosco’s dreams much thought in recent years. Early on following my reversion i read of them and they gave a chilling account of hell. If you please, could you point me to the book? I was unaware of his visions being prophetic, let alone any of them coming true. Thanks Much!

Forty Dreams of St. John Bosco

I have also read his account of Hell, it is truly chilling. The image of the young men running screaming from God into the pits of Hell has stuck with me… It’s in that book, and I look forward to getting to it. It is frightening, but I find reading about Hell to have a very positive affect on my spiritual life. It reminds me of what I’m trying to avoid.

Apparently there’s something like a twenty-volume collection of all of his dreams; I’d be interested to get my hands on that, though it’d probably take me years to get through them all XD.

Very interesting answer, thank you for it. “Accompanied by real-world changes”, although not a guarantee (nothing is guaranteed) of authenticity, is an interesting thought.

Happy to help. While it’s true that the real-world changes are not a guarantee, I would say that everything that has happened at Lourdes since the apparition pretty much makes that one absolutely undeniable. There are only so many miracles you can discount before the pattern becomes clear, and that’s only considering the fifty some-odd that have been approved. In reality, there have been thousands upon thousands of miracles attributed to Lourdes. I just heard this morning about a staunch atheist and eugenicist who was greatfully converted before his death by personal witness of multiple miracles at Lourdes.

 

[Elf01]

Does God not point the individual to her?

I’d say Mary points the individual to God.