Benevolent sexism

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A quick explanation: Basically opinions/beliefs/whatever that, in a sense, ‘put women on a pedestal’. It’s basically your “women are so pure and delicate and beautiful and feminine” sentiment we see quite commonly here or in similar forums. This is said to be sexist because there is the discrimination of man and woman (ie, the difference) which leads to different standards for the sexes (e.g. a woman being addicted to porn will be seen differently compared to a man. Also there was a thread criticizing a poster’s blog because of the stuff she said women should do). This type of sexism is also linked to hostile sexism in some countries.

Some examples from a famous scale:

-Many women have a quality of purity that few men possess.

-A good woman should be set on a pedestal by her man.

and so forth.

The supposed concept of chivalry is also said to be ‘sexist’ for the reasons I have mentioned above.

I don’t know if I’m liberal or a conservative (both annoy me to no end), but I have always found beliefs like this to be a little weird. It’s not something I’m offended by, but I have always felt a tad uncomfortable with statements like this. JPII’s feminine genius had also made me feel the same way (to be fair, I think the religion in general finds itself using similar beliefs to ‘elevate’ women from the sexism it allegedly has) I think that more traditional people love this, while the rest might have the same opinion as me?

What do you think? I don’t mean to start any drama (I noticed a lot of angst here recently)
 
for what it is worth…
one sex is still viewed higher as the other.

I can’t relate, usually women woud opt for the more hostile route rather than giving us odd statements.

Men would be more likely to give flowery statements which can be used to oppress because anything short will scream “sexist” in big bold letters.

what do you think of proverbs 31?

I have not met a woman who didn’t like JPII’s letter for women… :confused: I do remember reading a catholic article where I think the vatican was trying to find ways to include women for something. A priest/some other man gave similar statements and a woman told him to stop and simply treat them like normal human beings who are just as flawed. I did like that article for some reaosn.
 
As a practical matter, I think most things that would fall under benevolent sexism never really applied to women as a class. They applied to certain women.

I’m reminded of Sojurner Truth’s “Ain’t I a Woman” speech in the very beginnings of the feminist movement. It’s a short speech if anyone wants to read it, but the gist is that all the special privileges women were supposed to have certainly didn’t apply to her, a freedwoman.
 
DarkLight said:
As a practical matter, I think most things that would fall under benevolent sexism never really applied to women as a class. They applied to certain women.

I’m reminded of Sojurner Truth’s “Ain’t I a Woman” speech in the very beginnings of the feminist movement. It’s a short speech if anyone wants to read it, but the gist is that all the special privileges women were supposed to have certainly didn’t apply to her, a freedwoman.
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This is a good point.

I think there is a difference, too, between treating someone differently in a respectful way, because they are a different sex, and “benevolent sexism.” Things like opening doors have often been seen as some kind of statement about womanly weakness, and to be frank I think that’s nonsense.
 
I don’t think that believing that men and women have differences is sexist.

After all, they have clear physical differences. The idea that underneath we are all exactly the same, and gender is just in the physical appearance of the body, is a very new and modernist (leftist) idea.

Gender is tied to the body (that’s why angels don’t have gender) but since we are not just a soul inhabiting a body, since we are a complete human being, it affects us in ways that are more than just physical appearance.

The Church teaches that men and women are equal in dignity. But they’re not the same, and I don’t understand why some people see that as a bad thing. Would they also want all the flowers and trees to be identical, to only have one species of animal, etc? I’m sure not. But this standard is applied to human beings all the time, in some forms of feminism: that we all need to be alike.

I think some people try to fight this by saying what good traits women have. That way they’re highlighting the fact that there are differences but also making it to be a good thing. This need not be reactionary, some just like to appreciate the definition of “feminine”, as something made by God. I don’t think that’s a negative thing myself. But I think we need to be realistic and not idealize women either, which in the end, women wouldn’t like either.

There are definitely things men and women have in common. Both have an immortal soul, free will, reason. This is what makes us persons. Also we all have emotions, etc. But there are also differences, and I think if people talk about them positively, it doesn’t necessary make it “benevolent sexism”… because differences are not sexist. It would take another factor to make it sexism, imo.
 
pensmama87 said:
This is a good point.

I think there is a difference, too, between treating someone differently in a respectful way, because they are a different sex, and “benevolent sexism.” Things like opening doors have often been seen as some kind of statement about womanly weakness, and to be frank I think that’s nonsense.
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I honestly don’t care if someone opens the door for me or not, I know most men around me do it just to be kind, they even open doors for other men + women do it for them too. Also, for a lot of them, they just mindlessly do it because they were taught to do it. They do not consciously think that women are weak or whatever. I do live in a different culture though.

But I read an article that was linked on Tumblr, and the man said that he opens doors for women because he adores the feminine genius and he is in awe of women. He goes on and on and on about it, and he just sounds weird.

These type of men are not trying to make women inferior, imo, but I guess they don’t realize how they sound
 
Monica4316 said:
I don’t think that believing that men and women have differences is sexist.

After all, they have clear physical differences. The idea that underneath we are all exactly the same, and gender is just in the physical appearance of the body, is a very new and modernist (leftist) idea.

Gender is tied to the body (that’s why angels don’t have gender) but since we are not just a soul inhabiting a body, since we are a complete human being, it affects us in ways that are more than just physical appearance.

The Church teaches that men and women are equal in dignity. But they’re not the same, and I don’t understand why some people see that as a bad thing. Would they also want all the flowers and trees to be identical, to only have one species of animal, etc? I’m sure not. But this standard is applied to human beings all the time, in some forms of feminism: that we all need to be alike.

I think some people try to fight this by saying what good traits women have. That way they’re highlighting the fact that there are differences but also making it to be a good thing. This need not be reactionary, some just like to appreciate the definition of “feminine”, as something made by God. I don’t think that’s a negative thing myself. But I think we need to be realistic and not idealize women either, which in the end, women wouldn’t like either.

There are definitely things men and women have in common. Both have an immortal soul, free will, reason. This is what makes us persons. Also we all have emotions, etc. But there are also differences, and I think if people talk about them positively, it doesn’t necessary make it “benevolent sexism”… because differences are not sexist. It would take another factor to make it sexism, imo.
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I think the reason why there are women who have this issue is because this differences are not universal. So when you say, for example, “women turns a house into a home”, there will be women who have no artistic bone in their body who are terrible at home making/or have a different taste in interior who would be harmed for this stereotype. They would probably be told that they aren’t womanly enough.

And from my observations, these claims are not real differences as a result of biological sex. They are usually just the same stereotypes repeated over and over again. (I don’t want to call a caf poster out, but there’s one here who owns a blog that does this). Stereotypically feminine women love the praise, but then we also need to realize it’s not a ‘woman’s thing’ but more of personality differences.

And a side note: I thought souls have gender. Angels are genderless because they are a completely separate form of creation. I could be wrong, but I do remember a talk on TOB that claims gender is tied to souls as well.
 
I’ve noticed this a bit in my life, especially in the form of people making assumptions about my physical strength. My brothers and other men insist on taking stuff out of my arms so I don’t have to be burdened with carrying it. Like, I appreciate the thought, but my arms are not sticks: I can carry stuff. Last summer I was a merit badge counselor at a Boy Scout camp, and a lady asked me to get the boys to move some cinder blocks. I told her I could do it, and she poo-pooed me until I told her that I used to be a firefighter :rolleyes:
 
Lea101 said:
A quick explanation: Basically opinions/beliefs/whatever that, in a sense, ‘put women on a pedestal’. It’s basically your “women are so pure and delicate and beautiful and feminine” sentiment we see quite commonly here or in similar forums. This is said to be sexist because there is the discrimination of man and woman (ie, the difference) which leads to different standards for the sexes (e.g. a woman being addicted to porn will be seen differently compared to a man. Also there was a thread criticizing a poster’s blog because of the stuff she said women should do). This type of sexism is also linked to hostile sexism in some countries.

Some examples from a famous scale:

-Many women have a quality of purity that few men possess.

-A good woman should be set on a pedestal by her man.

and so forth.

The supposed concept of chivalry is also said to be ‘sexist’ for the reasons I have mentioned above.

I don’t know if I’m liberal or a conservative (both annoy me to no end), but I have always found beliefs like this to be a little weird. It’s not something I’m offended by, but I have always felt a tad uncomfortable with statements like this. JPII’s feminine genius had also made me feel the same way (to be fair, I think the religion in general finds itself using similar beliefs to ‘elevate’ women from the sexism it allegedly has) I think that more traditional people love this, while the rest might have the same opinion as me?

What do you think? I don’t mean to start any drama (I noticed a lot of angst here recently)
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Personally, I believe that it’s weird and creepy to place women on a pedestal. In my experience, that’s extremely unhealthy, emotionally speaking.

I favour the approach of just treating them like another human being.
 
Lea101 said:
I think the reason why there are women who have this issue is because this differences are not universal. So when you say, for example, “women turns a house into a home”, there will be women who have no artistic bone in their body who are terrible at home making/or have a different taste in interior who would be harmed for this stereotype. They would probably be told that they aren’t womanly enough.

And from my observations, these claims are not real differences as a result of biological sex. They are usually just the same stereotypes repeated over and over again. (I don’t want to call a caf poster out, but there’s one here who owns a blog that does this). Stereotypically feminine women love the praise, but then we also need to realize it’s not a ‘woman’s thing’ but more of personality differences.

And a side note: I thought souls have gender. Angels are genderless because they are a completely separate form of creation. I could be wrong, but I do remember a talk on TOB that claims gender is tied to souls as well.
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Completely agree.
 
TheAmazingGrace said:
I’ve noticed this a bit in my life, especially in the form of people making assumptions about my physical strength. My brothers and other men insist on taking stuff out of my arms so I don’t have to be burdened with carrying it. Like, I appreciate the thought, but my arms are not sticks: I can carry stuff. Last summer I was a merit badge counselor at a Boy Scout camp, and a lady asked me to get the boys to move some cinder blocks. I told her I could do it, and she poo-pooed me until I told her that I used to be a firefighter :rolleyes:
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I got told that I shouldn’t do strength training, because I might get muscles and then I’d be unattractive.
 
Can I just give my twelve cents? (and if I ramble, please forgive me)

Men and women are different. What does that mean? It means that there are biological differences between the two dimorphic sexes of our species. For instance, a male body does not (except in extremely rare cases) include a uterus, and a female body does not include testes. There are different mixes of androgen and estrogen at play, and these can give a member of a different perspective, or make them more likely to excel or falter in a particular setting. These differences can be overcome.

Let’s ask the same question again–what does that mean? That means that to say that the two sexes are 100% identical is a fallacy. Is either gender more important that the other? I believe that the answer to this question is an obvious ‘no.’ If either gender disappeared completely, the species would die off. (also if I only had other men to ever talk to, it’d be awfully dull, lol).

The curious thing (at least to me) about the Equality of the Sexes movement is that the problem was viewed as such:
  1. Men are held to a different standard than women. (ie, if a man sleeps around, he’s the stud; he can brag about it to his friends. If a woman sleeps around, she’s viewed as a pariah.)
  2. Women wanted a fairer playing field in a changing world, and rightfully so. If a woman works as hard as a man at the same job, and especially if she achieves equal or better results, she should at least be paid the same.
  3. Men are insecure; they’re taught from the time that they’re wee lads that they have to be the master, the boss, the provider, and unfortunately is some cases, the subjugator. When a female outdoes them, it’s natural for them to feel emasculated. This would lead men to decry women in the workforce.
  4. When a movement started to level the playing field, I feel that it could’ve been so much better if, instead of lowering woman to man’s standards, we could’ve raised man to woman’s. Men should have had peer pressure to not live as sordid lives; they should’ve been taught to adhere to a better standard of modesty.
  5. If there are 4 open positions, and out of the 15 applicants three of the top four are women and the other top four is a man; then three women and a man should be hired. If all four of the top applicants are men, then four men should be hired. If two of the top four are men, and two of the top four are women, then two men and two women should be hired. Instead, it’s come to a point where if there are four open positions, in the name of Gender Equality, at least two better be women.
You know, if that woman doesn’t get the job, because she didn’t deserve it, it might drive her to better herself, or help herself see that this wasn’t the right place for her. If there is a equal rep program in play, then it could end up hurting her in the end. But if she deserves it, and doesn’t get it because she’s a woman, then that is wrong.
  1. I’ve known many women who killed have kicked my butt. In fact, I know two female Brazilian Jiu-jitsu black-belts, and I would rather have them as a bodyguard than any man I know. I have witnessed physically strong women be ostracized or ‘whispered-about,’ because “it’s not right for a woman to be that way.”
  2. My rule is thus: if a woman let’s you know that she doesn’t want you to hold doors, help with carrying stuff, etc., you need to take note and not do things to instigate. I had a classmate in college who griped at me for always hurrying to get the door to the classroom building for female students walking with me. She then also complained when her arms were full and she couldn’t get the door open, because I followed her suggestion.
These are my thoughts and observations, and they are probably flawed in some way. I ,and all other men, should realize that they don’t know what it’s like to be a woman (and vice-versa). But just because I’m male doesn’t mean that I can’t make observations. Male and female are both sacred, and we aren’t the same.

Thoughts?

~Pax
 
SanRafael1102 said:
Thoughts?

~Pax
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I agree.

There was an old thread here that talked about how (most modern) Christians and modern feminists have the same goal, equality.

However, these Christians’ solution is to hold men to a higher standard while modern feminists is the hold women to a higher standard (eg Christians feel that men should not even be sleeping around as well, but feminists feel that women should sleep around)

I’m not exactly sure what you mean in point 7, she doesn’t seem to be contradicting herself, if her arms are full, you should open the door because she is unable to (the same goes if it’s your male friend). It’s more about ‘help’ than chivalry in that scenario imo
 
DarkLight said:
I got told that I shouldn’t do strength training, because I might get muscles and then I’d be unattractive.
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This view of women as delicate flowers is a view that I think arose from the Victorian age.

This usually applies to women from the upper classes as they are usually seen as mainly ornamental in value.

I’m sure working class men in Victorian England and around the world would like a wife who is healthy enough to have children without dying and healthy enough to work alongside him in the farm.
 
The best men know how to treat women fairly and love the women to whom they are close without needing to make general statements about it. They just do it.

Women are also individuals and are a huge group of diverse people making up approximately half the human race. Some of them are likely delicate flowers who feel very honored or loved by being put on a pedestal. Some of them are hardy or un-flowery types who would laugh at the thought or find it kind of weird or icky. We need to stop thinking of women as a group and recognize their individual selves and preferences.
 
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