Better Understanding of Free-Will

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PelagiathePenit

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I do understand. Yes, we are full in charge of ourselves and our lives. If something is important to us, we will pursue it. Why do people engage in particular sins? Some people are almost perfect in one area, yet the fail at another. It is difficult to think of certain things as sins, because I either do see how it affects the person doing it. For example, not giving money to the poor. Sometimes I do not understand the logic. For example, is divorce always a mortal sin? What about premarital sex? Why are thoughts, feelings sin, especially if you do not act on them?
 
I do understand. Yes, we are full in charge of ourselves and our lives. If something is important to us, we will pursue it. Why do people engage in particular sins? Some people are almost perfect in one area, yet the fail at another. It is difficult to think of certain things as sins, because I either do see how it affects the person doing it. For example, not giving money to the poor. Sometimes I do not understand the logic. For example, is divorce always a mortal sin? What about premarital sex? Why are thoughts, feelings sin, especially if you do not act on them?
Here are some of my understandings from Catholicism:
Why do people engage in particular sins?
Because sometimes we think we know better. Because sometimes we become impatient. Because sometimes we doubt.

Is divorce always a mortal sin?
Not always. It depends on factors regarding validity of the marriage, especially knowledge of the individuals.

What about premarital sex (Is it a mortal sin)?
Not always. It depend on factors regarding knowledge of the individuals.

Why are thoughts, feelings sin, especially if you do not act on them?
Because it is best to be unified in thought, feeling, and action. Since we are called to be the Best, anything less is a sin.
Because a thought not acted upon can be worse due to the lack of revelation of the harm caused from such ways.
 
Just wondering why you seem to be constantly worrying about SIN.
Our Faith gives great joy and happiness too.
I enjoy being a Catholic. Hope you do too? 🙂
 
I do understand. Yes, we are full in charge of ourselves and our lives. If something is important to us, we will pursue it. Why do people engage in particular sins? Some people are almost perfect in one area, yet the fail at another. It is difficult to think of certain things as sins, because I either do see how it affects the person doing it. For example, not giving money to the poor. Sometimes I do not understand the logic. For example, is divorce always a mortal sin? What about premarital sex? Why are thoughts, feelings sin, especially if you do not act on them?
We don’t know is someone is perfect since we cannot read minds. Premarital sex and thinking of it, or planning it, are objectively grave sins.

An act is a sin because it is not charitable. The two great commandments that contain the whole law of God are:

  1. *]Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with thy whole mind, and with thy whole strength;
    *]Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.

    Thoughts that are sinful are specifically mentioned in the ten commandments, in the last few commandments, they are precursors to acts, and are uncharitable.

    Bad example (scandal) is sinful also. We are a community and what we do has an effect on others, and may be sinful as a bad example, even if not sinful in itself. It occurs through the appearance of being sinful.

    Matthew 25 - The Sheep and the Goats31And when the Son of man shall come in his majesty, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit upon the seat of his majesty. 32And all nations shall be gathered together before him, and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats: 33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left.
    34Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and you took me in: 36Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me. 37Then shall the just answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, and fed thee; thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38And when did we see thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and covered thee? 39Or when did we see thee sick or in prison, and came to thee? 40And the king answering, shall say to them: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me.
    41Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry, and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me not to drink. 43I was a stranger, and you took me not in: naked, and you covered me not: sick and in prison, and you did not visit me. 44Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to thee? 45Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me. 46And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.
 
Here are some of my understandings from Catholicism:
Why do people engage in particular sins?
Because sometimes we think we know better. Because sometimes we become impatient. Because sometimes we doubt.

Is divorce always a mortal sin?
Not always. It depends on factors regarding validity of the marriage, especially knowledge of the individuals.

What about premarital sex (Is it a mortal sin)?
Not always. It depend on factors regarding knowledge of the individuals.


Why are thoughts, feelings sin, especially if you do not act on them?
Because it is best to be unified in thought, feeling, and action. Since we are called to be the Best, anything less is a sin.
Because a thought not acted upon can be worse due to the lack of revelation of the harm caused from such ways.
Premarital sex is, objectively, always a mortal sin. Subjectively, the full guilt of this sin may not be imputed in a particular instance because of lack of knowledge, etc. we have to be careful how we explain these things because lack of clarity can sometimes cause people to rationalize away their sins.
 
Premarital sex is, objectively, always a mortal sin. Subjectively, the full guilt of this sin may not be imputed in a particular instance because of lack of knowledge, etc. we have to be careful how we explain these things because lack of clarity can sometimes cause people to rationalize away their sins.
Perhaps you would share an additional Catholic source because from my research, based on the Catechism, the mortality of any sin is dependent upon three factors: grave matter, knowledge, and deliberate consent.

Divorce and pre-marital sex are definitely always grave matters, however, they are not always knowledgeable or deliberately consented to matters.
CCC#1857 For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: “Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent.”
 
Premarital sex is, objectively, always a mortal sin. Subjectively, the full guilt of this sin may not be imputed in a particular instance because of lack of knowledge, etc. we have to be careful how we explain these things because lack of clarity can sometimes cause people to rationalize away their sins.
I think that if we were left to our own devices, we would be able to work out for ourselves when we were doing something wrong. Maybe if it was nothing more than that small voice inside us saying: ‘Hey, I’m not sure I should be doing this’ (and yes, maybe that could be God).

But there are things that we do sometimes, such as premarital sex, when that little voice can be completely silent (if the little voice is God, then why is He so silent on some of these occasions?).

If you are a small child, you may not be aware that taking a toy from another child is wrong. At a young age you need to be told. But as you get older, you can see that taking it deprives someone else. You can see that there are negative consequences. So any mature adult should be able to distinguish from right and wrong. Which doesn’t prevent them from doing wrong, but at least they know what they are doing.

So if there are no negative outcomes from having premarital sex, then it is, by definition, not wrong. Again, that’s not to say that all premarital sex it therefore OK. But the circumstances of any act will dictate whether it is correct or not. If you have to be told that something is wrong, if you need to have it explained, then I’m not sure that in many instances it can be described as wrong.

‘It’s wrong because it is written here’ does not and cannot cover all circumstances.
 
I think that if we were left to our own devices, we would be able to work out for ourselves when we were doing something wrong. Maybe if it was nothing more than that small voice inside us saying: ‘Hey, I’m not sure I should be doing this’ (and yes, maybe that could be God).

But there are things that we do sometimes, such as premarital sex, when that little voice can be completely silent (if the little voice is God, then why is He so silent on some of these occasions?).

If you are a small child, you may not be aware that taking a toy from another child is wrong. At a young age you need to be told. But as you get older, you can see that taking it deprives someone else. You can see that there are negative consequences. So any mature adult should be able to distinguish from right and wrong. Which doesn’t prevent them from doing wrong, but at least they know what they are doing.
This is an interesting thought, although I think it would be difficult to work out the modality of the bolded statement (ie. “would be able to…”). I think there is some valid intuition that, yes, we admonish children and they are not always expected to behave as they ought, while adults we hold morally responsible for their errors.

However, I think there are opposing intuitions as well. Children sometimes have moral intuitions that adults do not; when they do something wrong, they may feel very guilty, or when a parent steals something from a store, they feel that it is wrong. By contrast, I agree that “any mature adult should be able to distinguish from right and wrong” (in the sense that they are culpable if they do not), but that doesn’t entail that they have something akin to a “little voice” telling them that they are wrong. In short, adults can go wrong, and when they do so, they are culpable.

But it is psychologically false that in doing so adults are (in general) conscious of their moral violations; there is enormous evidence of widespread moral self-assurance. Adults are often jaded and stuck in bad habits. Observe any argument on the internet; at least one side is arguing for a morally deficient position and almost everyone feels self-righteous. I know I sometimes observe my parents saying that they are justified where, in my view, they clearly are not–and I don’t think that is an unusual phenomenon.
So if there are no negative outcomes from having premarital sex, then it is, by definition, not wrong.
This depends on what you mean by “negative outcomes.” That category can be construed broadly enough that the above statement is essentially a tautology; for example, there might be intrinsically wrong acts, one of which is premarital sex, in which case all premarital sex necessarily has a negative outcome, making the above statement necessarily true.

I suspect you mean something more specific by “negative outcomes”–maybe an act has negative outcomes only if some person (justifiably*?) involved in the act believe themselves to have been hurt by the act. This is a more tendentious and controversial claim. (Since the idea that this follows from the definition of “wrong” would beg important questions.) One issue is that the lack of negative outcomes would have to be underwritten by some index of premoral goods, which is difficult to specify. Another issue is that it would justify other more controversial behavior; two brothers or a father and daughter using birth control could probably have sex without “negative outcomes” under this construal. (One may regard such behaviors as fine anyway. This is mainly meant to highlight how controversial such a principle would be, since it is usually denied that contemporary sexual mores entail the permissibility of incest.)

*I hesitate to add this qualification. Leaving it out would make it too easy for people to claim that an act is wrong. But adding it in would of course require that what is justifiable be explicated, and then the account of negative outcomes is not autonomous. There is probably a neater way to handle these issues, but I’m tired right now.
 
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