Bible tells us life begins in the womb

[Oldtimer_7]

The ancients were not stupid nor were they unobservant. Quickening was the best they could do, if we compare it to modern science. Yet, even with our scientific knowledge, we do not have a clearcut defination. Children are routinely treated today and survive who would have died just a couple of decades ago. Women carry children to term who would have themselves died of things like eclampsia.

Some years ago, I had a woman in counseling who was a lesbian. Her lesbianism was the result of an unintended pregnancy, followed by the abandonment by the child’s father. The tradegic situation was compounded by the baby dying in the fifth month. The male doctor refused to do an abortion (I anticipate that we can get into a debate of whethere it would be an abortion if the child was dead.) At any rate, the woman carried the dead baby for four more months and then delivered it. The complications of the delivery nearly killed the woman. After that, the woman wanted nothing to do with men in any circumstance.

What I am getting at is that arbritarianism is damaging whichever way it is applied. I hope that we can agree on that point. Also damaging is the attempt to dodge an issue as important as this, which is what I think my denomination did by changing the wording of the Apostle’s Creed.

 

[_Abyssinia]

Murder is wrong: Gen. 9:6; Matthew 15:19;19:18; Mark 10:19; Luke 18:20; John 8:44; Acts 3:14; and Romans 1:28-29; 13:9.

Psalm 51:5 (David says,“Behold,I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.” and Luke 1:44 (“For behold,when the sound of your greeting reached my ears,the baby leaped in my womb for joy.” Both describe the unborn using personal attributes.

Unborn described by using personal pronouns. Jeremiah 1:5 says,“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations.”

Matthew 1:20-21 states, “But when he had considered this, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream,saying, ‘Joseph,son of David,do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife; for the Child who has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.’

Jesus was regarded as a child from conception. Matthew 1:20 says,“But when he had considered this, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, ‘Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife; for the Child who has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.’ The Angel tells Joseph: “the Child who has been conceived” is “of the Holy Spirit.’

The unborn called baby. Luke 1:41 states,“When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit (1:44).”

The same punishment was applicable to someone who kills or injures the unborn as for one who kills or injured an adult, Exodus 21:22-23 states, “If men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she gives birth prematurely,yet there is no injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman’s husband may demand of him, and he shall pay as the judges decide. But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life . . . .”

Mosaic law viewed the unborn as persons worthy of the same rights as adults.

The unborn are called by God throughout birth. Similarly to Jeremiah 1:5, Isaiah 49:1 says ,“Listen to me, O islands, And pay attention,you peoples from afar, the LORD called me from the womb; from the body of my mother He named me.”

The unborn are known by God as personally as any other person already born. Psalm 139:15-16 says, “My frame was not hidden from You, when I was made in secret, and skillfully wrought in the depths of the earth; Your eyes have seen my unformed substance; and in Your book were all written;the days that were ordained for me, when as yet there was not one of them.” Describing the prophet Jeremiah, Jeremiah 1:5 says, “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,and before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations.

 

[Mintaka]

The important point to remember about “the quick and the dead” is that it’s a TRANSLATION of the Apostle’s Creed. The source language is Latin, not Old English and Middle English, much less Early Modern English.

“iudicare vivos et mortuos” means “to judge the living and the dead.”

Except in Yorkshire and the quick of your nail, “quick” only means “rapid” in English these days. Not lively, not living.

Like the Sabbath, Creed translations are made for man and not man for Creed translations. The living language is the language we use for approved vernacular translations. The words used should be formal, yes. Incomprehensible, no.

 

[Orianna]

Murder is wrong: Gen. 9:6; Matthew 15:19;19:18; Mark 10:19; Luke 18:20; John 8:44; Acts 3:14; and Romans 1:28-29; 13:9.

Psalm 51:5 (David says,“Behold,I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.” and Luke 1:44 (“For behold,when the sound of your greeting reached my ears,the baby leaped in my womb for joy.” Both describe the unborn using personal attributes.

Unborn described by using personal pronouns. Jeremiah 1:5 says,“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations.”

Matthew 1:20-21 states, “But when he had considered this, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream,saying, ‘Joseph,son of David,do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife; for the Child who has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.’

Jesus was regarded as a child from conception. Matthew 1:20 says,“But when he had considered this, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, ‘Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife; for the Child who has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.’ The Angel tells Joseph: “the Child who has been conceived” is “of the Holy Spirit.’

The unborn called baby. Luke 1:41 states,“When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit (1:44).”

The same punishment was applicable to someone who kills or injures the unborn as for one who kills or injured an adult, Exodus 21:22-23 states, “If men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she gives birth prematurely,yet there is no injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman’s husband may demand of him, and he shall pay as the judges decide. But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life . . . .”

Mosaic law viewed the unborn as persons worthy of the same rights as adults.

The unborn are called by God throughout birth. Similarly to Jeremiah 1:5, Isaiah 49:1 says ,“Listen to me, O islands, And pay attention,you peoples from afar, the LORD called me from the womb; from the body of my mother He named me.”

The unborn are known by God as personally as any other person already born. Psalm 139:15-16 says, “My frame was not hidden from You, when I was made in secret, and skillfully wrought in the depths of the earth; Your eyes have seen my unformed substance; and in Your book were all written;the days that were ordained for me, when as yet there was not one of them.” Describing the prophet Jeremiah, Jeremiah 1:5 says, “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,and before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations.

The problem I have with using Jeremiah, a great prophet, or Jesus; which God gave life even before their birth. is because they are not like you and I, but great prophets of God! Thus, the point made is that God even knew them and preordained their auspicious births. And that is the point of the scripture… their birth’s were preordained before time. If you want to believe this is the same for everyone, that is your prerogative. But I think that position takes the impact of these sayings away entirely. I believe the specialness of their births are being discussed here, making a point their lives are of special purpose including by special birth. Consider that, and you truly cannot argue pro-life from these holy words.

 

[Orianna]

The important point to remember about “the quick and the dead” is that it’s a TRANSLATION of the Apostle’s Creed. The source language is Latin, not Old English and Middle English, much less Early Modern English.

“iudicare vivos et mortuos” means “to judge the living and the dead.”

Except in Yorkshire and the quick of your nail, “quick” only means “rapid” in English these days. Not lively, not living.

Like the Sabbath, Creed translations are made for man and not man for Creed translations. The living language is the language we use for approved vernacular translations. The words used should be formal, yes. Incomprehensible, no.

Sorry, but I haven’t been able to decipher your point or what position from this comment.

But, recall that the original creed was not written in Latin. The Holy Roman Church had St. Jerome translate early testaments around 400AD (Vulgate). The formal written language during apostles time was Greek, and it had to be translated into Latin which was the language of the growing church.
The spoken languages during the apostles time and geography would have been Aramaic and/or Hebrew, depending on heritage.

 

[Orianna]

Sorry, but I haven’t been able to decipher your point or what position from this comment.

But, recall that the original creed was not written in Latin. The Holy Roman Church had St. Jerome translate early testaments around 400AD (Vulgate). The formal written language during apostles time was Greek, and it had to be translated into Latin which was the language of the growing church.
The spoken languages during the apostles time and geography would have been Aramaic and/or Hebrew, depending on heritage.