Bible Verses that have always.. troubled me

[SnakeMauler]

Currently I’m attempting to read the whole Bible, and I’m doing good. But the following passages have always bothered me.

#1: The part in Exodus about God almost killing Abraham for forgetting to circumcize his son. Now, I realize from a footnote on my Bible that the particular text there is wierdly translated from Hebrew and is sort of abrupt and obscure, but it has always bothered me. I realized the circumcision thing was a big thing and all, but did it really amount to God almost killing Moses? Surely Moses was doing pretty good, and his good deeds outweighed his bad at that point? I mean, surely God could have gave him a warning. I don’t remember how many kids he had, but I mean, he probably had a lot, it’s not easy to circumcize all of them. Plus he lived to be like one hundred and twenty, and they didn’t really come up with the whole Israelite registration system until later in Exodus. I just think God should have gave him a warning or something. Dunno, I’ve always felt that it was kind of random. I guess that’s why God “almost” killed him.

#2 The exorcism at Gersames. Or however you spell it. Sorry if I sound silly, I read all the Gospels and a fair amount of the Old Testament I just can’t remember names (who can?). You know, some guy who was possessed was rambling around the graveyard. Well, I have no problem with him being healed obviously, but whats always confused me is when they were being driven out, they demons (Legion, “for they were many”) said “let us go into the swine.” and Jesus was like, Sure go ahead. And then they went into the swine and all the swine ran off a cliff. Now, this passage raises a lot of questions from me.

• Why was it necessary that the demons “go into another being” for them to be driven out, or was Jesus just showing them some kind of mercy for some inexplicable reason? Why didn’t he say HELL NO, and just let them, evaporate into the air, or something? Were they a “species of demon” unique to this guy (or not elsewhere mentioned in the Bible) which required a medium of transfer?

-Secondly, does healing one man of demons really outweigh the poverty and problems that the family of the pig farmers will face later? It could have been someone’s entire livelihood. And why were people farming pigs anyway if they were Jews? Was this a none Jewish town? I think it might have said later in the passage that the farmers of the pigs were OK with it and spread the gospel or something like that later, which is cool I guess.

Anyways… post how you feel…

Thanks,
-Snakemauler

 

[LilyM]

Currently I’m attempting to read the whole Bible, and I’m doing good. But the following passages have always bothered me.

#1: The part in Exodus about God almost killing Abraham for forgetting to circumcize his son. Now, I realize from a footnote on my Bible that the particular text there is wierdly translated from Hebrew and is sort of abrupt and obscure, but it has always bothered me. I realized the circumcision thing was a big thing and all, but did it really amount to God almost killing Moses? Surely Moses was doing pretty good, and his good deeds outweighed his bad at that point? I mean, surely God could have gave him a warning. I don’t remember how many kids he had, but I mean, he probably had a lot, it’s not easy to circumcize all of them. Plus he lived to be like one hundred and twenty, and they didn’t really come up with the whole Israelite registration system until later in Exodus. I just think God should have gave him a warning or something. Dunno, I’ve always felt that it was kind of random. I guess that’s why God “almost” killed him.

YES, circumcision was a big deal. A VERY big deal. Directly commanded by God to be done to all male Hebrews.

Think of it like eating the fruit in Eden - in and of itself eating fruit is not a big deal. But disobeying an unequivocal and direct order from God, be it the smallest or largest, the most logical or (seemingly) illogical, IS a very big deal. And for that disobedience Adam and Eve suffered as we all suffer when we are disobedient.

#2 The exorcism at Gersames.

I think two different towns are named in two different Gospel accounts. One being Gadara (or Gadarene).

• Why was it necessary that the demons “go into another being” for them to be driven out, or was Jesus just showing them some kind of mercy for some inexplicable reason? Why didn’t he say HELL NO, and just let them, evaporate into the air, or something? Were they a “species of demon” unique to this guy (or not elsewhere mentioned in the Bible) which required a medium of transfer?

Jesus drove demons from numerous people, none of the others made this stipulation. So it’s most unlikely that there was any necessity or requirement in the case. Rather the demons, wrongly, think they will survive and, thus, potentially go on to possess other people later, if they can go into the swine. God, of course, knows better and upsets their plans by killing their swine hosts.

-Secondly, does healing one man of demons really outweigh the poverty and problems that the family of the pig farmers will face later? It could have been someone’s entire livelihood. And why were people farming pigs anyway if they were Jews? Was this a none Jewish town? I think it might have said later in the passage that the farmers of the pigs were OK with it and spread the gospel or something like that later, which is cool I guess.

Anyways… post how you feel…

Thanks,
-Snakemauler

You really think God would let the poor innocent pigfarmers suffer for something Jesus (God) did? Of course not. I’m sure those farmers didn’t lose by what happened.

I’m not sure whether it was a Jewish town or not, but remember Palestine was occupied by Romans, and certain places also did a lot of trade with Egyptians or Greeks. Possibly the Jewish farmers raised pigs, not for their own use, but to sell to Romans, Egyptians or Greeks in the neighbourhood.

 

[SnakeMauler]

Yeah, I guess I was just being silly. I’m sure Jesus probably paid them after. Heck, maybe he invited them to one of those feeding of the five thousand things and they got to take a basket home, which miraculously contained an infinite amount of bread and fish that never spoiled (just dreaming on that “not spoiled bit”).

I dunno, I just felt bad for the pigs, it was like two thousand of them. I was mostly worried someone was down below, or that they washed up on a beach and scared some kids when people were tanning, or any number of things:shrug:

-Snakemauler

 

[Apollos]

Why was it necessary that the demons “go into another being” for them to be driven out

Maybe Jesus was sending people a message about what demons can do. I have heard stories about generals who execute all but one prisoner of war and let the last guy go free to carry the story back to the rest of the enemy, which is exactly what the swineherds did.

 

[nablaise]

Actually, the pig story was read in the Mass few days ago.

One commentatator had a very interesting idea and I think his points makes sense.

I think Jesus was teaching a lessons to the Jews. Notice that what the possessed men said is similar to what the town people said. I think this could suggest that the same demons (or similar) occupied the town people as well.
So to teach a lesson of human dignity, Jesus demonstrated that while pigs could not support such evil, the town people were willing to support it.
Jesus was comparing the jews to the pigs.

The pigs were more martyrs than suicidal. They died in similar way a martyr prefer to die rather that do some horrible thing. So the pigs charging into the water was their way of refusing to host those demons. Afterall the demons needed a host and had specifically asked Jesus to go into the pigs, why would they kill the pigs then? They killed the pigs because the pigs somehow refused to ‘host’ them.

I am not suggesting that the pigs have some sort of free will, but a compatibility issue. While even the pigs are not compatible with the particular evils of the demons, the jews were (willing to accomodate them).

May be this is the moral of the story.

 

[nablaise]

Maybe Jesus was sending people a message about what demons can do. I have heard stories about generals who execute all but one prisoner of war and let the last guy go free to carry the story back to the rest of the enemy, which is exactly what the swineherds did.

I think this makes sense too. It is funny how the town people instead of welcoming Jesus and asking him to protect them from the demons, actually asked him to leave them alone though. Why would they do this? May be the demons left the pigs and went into the town. This could explain why the town people came out speaking nearly the same language as the two men: “Leave us alone, you have come to torment us”?

 

[smithm29]

They may well have been angry with him because he killed their swine- which they were raising in violation of Mosaic law. If Jews were raising pigs, Jesus’ actions were justice. Nobody likes to be told they’re doing the wrong thing, especially if their community has gotten away with it for a long time.

Jesus could have answered the demons’ request out of a sense of irony- the demons were too unclean to inhabit the Jews, but swine suited them perfectly.

Of course, if the swineherds were Gentiles, that’s another question. Many Jews consider the very ground holy in Israel. If that was the case 2000 years ago (and we have reason to believe it is because of the language used throughout the Old Testament), then keeping swine in the Holy Land could, in itself, be seen as defiling God’s people. In that case, regardless of who was raising them, they were anathema and the swine needed to be destroyed to cleanse God’s land. Of course, that’s a very Jewish reading that could hint at the Roman occupation, too…

(Edited for clarity!)

 

[Mea_Culpa]

The territory of the Gerasenes was Jesus’ first excursion into non-Jewish territory. He was among gentiles. The demoniac lives among tombs, possessed by demons. Jesus drives the demons out into a herd of swine. This shows the importance of one human soul compared to a herd of swine.

The townspeople ask Jesus to leave. They don’t want to deal with the implications of what has just happened - who is this man? if He is who he says He is, what is the implication for my life?

The healed demoniac wants to follow Jesus. Jesus refuses him, telling him to go to his own people and tell them what the Lord has done for him. (Among the Jews, Jesus tells those he heals to keep His identity a secret.) The cured demoniac becomes the first evangelist to the gentiles! He is a witness, giving his personal testimony as a way of spreading the Good News. “I once was lost, but now I’m found, was blind but now I see.” A very old, but very effective method of evangelizing.

 

[Nita]

The Haydock footnotes on this section of Matthew 8 are very interesting.
( haydock1859.tripod.com/ )
Underlining mine. I found it interesting that the demons did not want to go to hell!!!

QUOTE:

Ver. 31. “Send us into the herd of swine.” According to St. Luke], they begged of him two things; the first, that they might not be sent into hell, there to be tormented with more grievous torments, as they will be at the end of the world; the second, that they might be permitted to go into the herd of swine, that these being destroyed, the inhabitants of that country might be ill affected towards our Saviour, and refuse to receive him. The event seems to confirm this opinion. (Menochius)

Ver. 32. Many reasons might be brought why our Saviour suffered the devils to enter into the swine: 1. To shew that the devils had no power even over swine without his permission. 2. That such as were freed from their power, might acknowledge the greatness of the favour done them, by seeing from how great a multitude they were liberated. 3. To punish those Jewish citizens, who fed upon swine’s flesh contrary to their law. And, 4. To shew how willingly the devils dwell in the hearts of those who are addicted to the voluptuous and carnal life, aptly designated by the swine. (Menochius) — St. Chrysostom says that our Saviour permitted the devils to enter the swine, not for their own sakes, but for our instruction. 1. That we might know how very desirous the enemy of our salvation is to bring upon us the greatest evils. 2. That the devil has not any power, even over swine, without the permission of God. And, 3. That these cruel fiends would, if the Almighty allowed them, inflict still more grievous torments on their unhappy slaves. (Hom. xxix.) Jesus Christ here confutes the Sadducean doctrine, which denies the existence of spirits, good or bad. (Haydock)

Ver. 34. That he would depart from their coasts. St. Jerome thinks these people did this out of a motive of humility, looking upon themselves unworthy of his presence: others judge that the loss of the swine made them apprehend lest Christ, being a Jew, might do them greater damages. (Witham) — The fear lest his presence might cause them some fresh loss, seems to have overbalanced, in their estimation, the advantages they might have expected from his visit. (Bible de Vence) — How often has our good Lord wished to visit us, to honour us with his sacred presence, to enrich us with his divine inspirations; and how often, like these Gerasens, have we desired him to depart from our territories? Some worldly interest, sensual enjoyment, or supine listlessness on our part, has occasioned us to neglect the proffered advantages. Oh! can there be more marked ingratitude than this! Oh! how shall we one day grieve for having lost, by our culpable indifference, immense spiritual treasures, which have been made over to others far more deserving than ourselves! Yes, the day will certainly arrive, when we shall value a single additional degree of the divine favor and grace, infinitely more than all the united honours, riches, and pleasures of this world. (Haydock)

 

[SnakeMauler]

Wow, thanks so much everyone! I never would have thought there could be so much to that one section. And here I was just concerned about farmers losing their well being!

 

[Oldtimer_7]

If I may add to the story of the Gerasene demoniac: this story is found in all three of the Synoptic Gospels. Matthew, in his usual fashion with material from Mark, doubles the number of demoniacs. The area is in the Decapolis, a group of ten Greek towns on the eastern side of the Sea of Galilee. No self-respecting Jew would have anything to do with pigs. In the Parable of the Prodigal Son, that the son is feeding pigs is indicative of his utter isolation from his family and his heritage. As the Greeks of the Decapolis have no concept of a Messiah, they can only react with fear. The Sea of Galilee is quite deep on the eastern side, so the request of the demons not to be sent into the abyss is ironic, as the pigs drown in the deep part of the Sea.

For Jews, this whole episode would be hugely comic. Matthew certainly plays it up to make it so, while Mark and Luke, writing to Gentile audiences, are more concerned with the issue of Jesus’ concern for Gentiles. The using of the recovered demoniac as an evangelist is a sign of Jesus wanting to also save the Gentiles. In Judea or Galilee, he would not have been listened to, but could have an impact in the Decapolis.

Snakemauler, since you are Catholic, I might suggest the Sacra Pagina series of New Testament criticism, edited by Daniel Harrington, SJ. It is very readable for nonprofessionals, but also offers an entry to the deeper meanings and concerns of the New Testament.

 

[rogue13]

Matthew, in his usual fashion with material from Mark, doubles the number of demoniacs.

The Theory of Marcan Priority is just that, a theory. I prefer to call it a fairy tale, complete with imaginary characters. “Q? Where are you, Q? Please come out, Q, so that people won’t think we’re just making you up?! Please, Q? It’s very important to us that you let others see you, too. Please!?”

 

[Oldtimer_7]

Actually, Rogue13, Markan priority is a hypothesis, as is the positing of Q. There are also hypotheses that make Matthew the prior work, and even Luke. There is two source, and four source. Properly understood, they are ways of testing the text to see if it makes sense. The reason the Synoptics first got the name is that they do all contain much of the same material, presented in a fairly common timeline, and using the same language in many cases. None of this rises to the level of theory, but it is an ongoing attempt to come to grips with both the commonalities and with the differences in the three books.

 

[DL82]

Actually, the pig story was read in the Mass few days ago.

One commentatator had a very interesting idea and I think his points makes sense.

I think Jesus was teaching a lessons to the Jews. Notice that what the possessed men said is similar to what the town people said. I think this could suggest that the same demons (or similar) occupied the town people as well.
So to teach a lesson of human dignity, Jesus demonstrated that while pigs could not support such evil, the town people were willing to support it.
Jesus was comparing the jews to the pigs.

The pigs were more martyrs than suicidal. They died in similar way a martyr prefer to die rather that do some horrible thing. So the pigs charging into the water was their way of refusing to host those demons. Afterall the demons needed a host and had specifically asked Jesus to go into the pigs, why would they kill the pigs then? They killed the pigs because the pigs somehow refused to ‘host’ them.

I am not suggesting that the pigs have some sort of free will, but a compatibility issue. While even the pigs are not compatible with the particular evils of the demons, the jews were (willing to accomodate them).

May be this is the moral of the story.

That’s an interesting interpretation.

I had always thought that the reason the demons wanted to enter the pigs was because pigs don’t have an eternal soul. If the demons had been driven out of the man, they’d go straight back to hell, and they found that thought so terrible, that they would rather just cease to exist like beasts. So in a way, Jesus is being merciful to them. That was just an idea though.

At the end of the day, all the posessions in the world do not add up to the value of saving the soul of one man.