Bible, which?

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I have learned of Catholics having a bible, with “extra” books, question:

Where these books added into the bible, after the others, or where they already in it?

Why don’t KJV or NIT books have them?

Please no protestant bashing by catholics, and no catholic bashing by protestants, I just want to know.
 
ChristianKnight said:
I have learned of Catholics having a bible, with “extra” books, question:

Where these books added into the bible, after the others, or where they already in it?

Why don’t KJV or NIT books have them?

Please no protestant bashing by catholics, and no catholic bashing by protestants, I just want to know.
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The answer you get will depend upon whether the question is answered by a Catholic or a Protestant. At the time of Jesus, there were two versions of Jewish Scriptures. One was a Hebrew translation, and one was a Greek translation (sometimes called the Septuigent). However, the Greek version contains seven books not found in the Hebrew translation. The extra books are:

Tobit
Judith
Wisdom
Sirach (also called Ben Sira or Ecclesiasticus)
Baruch, including the Letter of Jeremiah
1 Maccabees
2 Maccabees

Plus… some additions to Esther and Daniel

Protestants call these works the Apocrypha. Catholics sometimes refer to them as the Deuterocanonicals. Catholics and Orthodox consider them to be scripture. Protestants consider them worthy of reading and study, but NOT inspired scripture. On occasion, Protestant Bibles will include them in an appendix.

When the Bible was being compiled, there was some debate over which version of Jewish scripture to use. Should the extra books be included, or not? At some point AFTER the time of Jesus, Jews decided against including the works in their canon, but Jesus would have been familiar with the extra books, as they were still used in his time. They were included in all Bibles until the Protestant Reformation. At that time, Martin Luther argued that because the Jews rejected the seven books (much later) and that because there had been some debate about them, they should be removed. Catholics counter that they had ALWAYS been part of scripture, and the Councils of Carthage, Hippo, and Rome from the 300s AD confirm this. Further, it is suspicious to Catholics that many of our strongest references to Purgatory and praying for the dead come from the exact seven books that Martin Luther wanted removed from the Bible.

So… Catholics believe that Martin Luther removed vital scripture from an already defined Bible, possibly to make it support his own views, which you would agree is a VERY serious accusation. Protestants argue that Luther erred on the side of caution by removing contested books that Jews no longer used, and that doctrinal flaws may have resulted in the Catholic Church because it was using uninspired Scriptures.

In any case, it is a very important issue.
 
ChristianKnight said:
I have learned of Catholics having a bible, with “extra” books, question:

Where these books added into the bible, after the others, or where they already in it?

Why don’t KJV or NIT books have them?

Please no protestant bashing by catholics, and no catholic bashing by protestants, I just want to know.
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They are not Extra-Biblical. They have been a part of Scripture since the Church declared them to be otherwise. They are commonly called as the Deutrocanonical Books. They are seven of them.

The early version of the KJV does have. The Douay Rheims Bible which predates KJV have it. Even the first English translation of the Bible has it.

I believe (I read it) that around the late 1700 to 1800) the Protestants scholars decided to remove the 7 Deutrocanonical Books in the OT. That is why all Protestant Bible have 66 books instead of 72 or 73 books.
 
ChristianKnight;:
Where these books added into the bible, after the others, or where they already in it?
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Depending upon the theology of the person you are taking to:
  • Books were added to the Bible;
  • Books were removed from the Bible;
Listing the books, and the Canon that they are part of, in an attempt to keep things clear.

For all practical purposes, all branches of Christianity accept the 66 book Canon. (Exceptions are listed at the end of this message)

The “additional books” are:
  • Catholic Deuterocanon:
    ** Greek Esther
    *** Daniel 3:24-91 Song of the Three Young Men;
    *** Daniel 13: (The Story of Susanna)
    *** Daniel 14: (Bel and the Dragon)
    ** Tobit
    ** Judith
    ** 1 Macabees
    ** 2 Macabees
    ** Wisdom
    ** Sirach
    ** Baruch
    *** Baruch 6: (Epistle of Jeremiah)
*Anglican Deuterocanon:
** Greek Esther
*** Daniel 3:24-91 Song of the Three Young Men;
*** Daniel 13: (The Story of Susanna)
*** Daniel 14: (Bel and the Dragon)
** Tobit
** Judith
** 1 Macabees
** 2 Macabees
** Wisdom
** Sirach
** Baruch
*** Baruch 6: (Epistle of Jeremiah)
** 1 Esdras
** 2 Esdras
** Prayer of Manasses
  • Orthodox Anagignoskomena:
    ** Greek Esther
    *** Daniel 3:24-91 Song of the Three Young Men;
    *** Daniel 13: (The Story of Susanna)
    *** Daniel 14: (Bel and the Dragon)
    ** Tobit
    ** Judith
    ** 1 Macabees
    ** 2 Macabees
    ** Wisdom
    ** Sirach
    ** Baruch
    *** Baruch 6: (Epistle of Jeremiah)
    ** 1 Esdras
    ** 2 Esdras
    ** Prayer of Manasses
    *** Psalms 151
    ** 3 Macabees
    ** 4 Macabees
  • Ethiopiac Canon of Eighty One (Narrower Canon):
    1. Genesis
    2. Exodus
    3. Leviticus
    4. Numbers
    5. Deuteronomy
    6. Joshua
    7. Judges
    8. Ruth
    9. Judith
    10. 1 Samuel
    11. 2 Samuel,
    12. 1 Kings
    13. 2 Kings
    14. 1 Chronicles
    15. 2 Chronicles, Prayer of Manasseh
    16. 1 Esdras (Ezra)
    17. 2 Esdras (Nehemiah)
    18. 3 Esdras
    19. Ezra Sutu’el (4 Esdras 3-14)
    20. Greek Esther
    21. Tobit
    22. 1 Meqabyan
    23. 2 Meqabyan
    24. 3 Meqabyan
    25. Job
    26. Psalms, Psalm 151
    27. Messalë (Proverbs 1 - 24)
    28. Täagsas (Proverbs 25 - 31)
    29. Wisdom of Solomon
    30. Ecclesiastes
    31. Song of Solomon
    32. Sirach (Ecclesiasticus)
    33. Isaiah
    34. Jeremiah (Jeremiah 1 - 52)
    35. Säqoqawä Eremyas (Lamentations)
    36. Baruch (Baruch 1-5)
    37. Epistle of Jeremiah
    38. Ezekiel
    39. Daniel
    40. Song of the Three Young Men, Susanna, Bel and the Dragon
    41. Hosea
    42. Amos
    43. Micah
    44. Joel
    45. Obadiah
    46. Jonah
    47. Nahum
    48. Habakkuk
    49. Zephaniah
    50. Haggai
    51. Zacariah
    52. Malachi
    53. Enoch
    54. Jubilees
    55. Matthew
    56. Mark
    57. Luke
    58. John
    59. Acts
    60. Romans
    61. 1 Corinthians
    62. 2 Corinthians
    63. Galatians
    64. Ephesians
    65. Philippians
    66. Collossians
    67. 1 Thessalonians
    68. 2 Thessalonians
    69. 1 Timothy
    70. 2 Timothy
    71. Titus
    72. Philemon
    73. Hebrews
    74. James
    75. 1 Peter
    76. 2 Peter
    77. 1 John
    78. 2 John
    79. 3 John
    80. Jude
    81. Revelation
  • Ethiopiac Canon of Eighty One (Broader Canon):
    1. Genesis
    2. Exodus
    3. Leviticus
    4. Numbers
    5. Deuteronomy
    6. Joshua
    7. Judges
    8. Ruth
    9. Judith
    10. 1 Samuel, 2 Samuel, 1 Kings, 2 Kings
    11. 1 Chronicles, 2 Chronicles, Prayer of Manasseh
    12. 1 Esdras (Ezra)
    13. 2 Esdras (Nehemiah)
    14. 3 Esdras, Ezra Sutu’el (4 Esdras 3-14)
    15. Greek Esther
    16. Tobit
    17. 1 Meqabyan
    18. 2 Meqabyan, 3 Meqabyan
    19. Job
    20. Psalms, Psalm 151
    21. Messalë (Proverbs 1 - 24)
    22. Täagsas (Proverbs 25 - 31)
    23. Wisdom of Solomon
    24. Ecclesiastes
    25. Song of Solomon
    26. Isaiah
    27. Jeremiah (Jeremiah 1 - 52)
    28. Säqoqawä Eremyas (Lamentations, Epistle of Jeremiah)
    29. Baruch (Baruch 1-5)
    30. Ezekiel
    31. Daniel (Daniel, Song of the Three Young Men, Susanna, Bel and the Dragon)
    32. Hosea
    33. Amos
    34. Micah
    35. Joel
    36. Obadiah
    37. Jonah
    38. Nahum
    39. Habakkuk
    40. Zephaniah
    41. Haggai
    42. Zacariah
    43. Malachi
    44. Sirach (Ecclesiasticus)
    45. Jubilees
    46. Enoch
    47. Matthew
    48. Mark
    49. Luke
    50. John
    51. Acts
    52. Romans
    53. 1 Corinthians
    54. 2 Corinthians
    55. Galatians
    56. Ephesians
    57. Philippians
    58. Collossians
    59. 1 Thessalonians
    60. 2 Thessalonians
    61. 1 Timothy
    62. 2 Timothy
    63. Titus
    64. Philemon
    65. Hebrews
    66. James
    67. 1 Peter
    68. 2 Peter
    69. 1 John
    70. 2 John
    71. 3 John
    72. Jude
    73. Revelation
    74. 1 Book of the Covenant (Mäshafä Kidan 1 - 60)
    75. 2 Book of the Covenant (Mäshafä Kidan 61)
    76. Didesqelya
    77. 1 Sinodos (Ser`atä Seyon)
    78. 2 Sinodos (Te’ezaz)
    79. 3 Sinodos (Gessew)
    80. 4 Sinodos (Abtelis)
    81. Qälëmentos
The Catholic Deuterocanon was confirmed by the Council of Trent. (1545-1563).

The Anglican Deuterocanon was “confirmed” with the declaration of the Thirty Nine Articles of Faith, in 1563.

Athanasius the Great (293 – 373) wrote that “These books have been appointed of the Fathers to be read by proselytes who are preparing for admission into the Church.” The Synod of Laodicea confirmed the teachings of Athanasius the Great.
I thought that either The Confession of Cyril Lucarisp (1629), or *The Confession of Dositheus * or The Synod of Jerusalem (1672) enumerated the books, but I can’t find them in my copy. 😦 Orthodox Christianity relies far more on Tradition, than either Catholic or Protestant Christianity, and such, did not perceive a need to explicitly enumerate the books.

Protestant Christianity tends to cite the claim that since these books were not considered Canonical by the The Council of Jamnia, they are not the Word of God. The major problem with that claim, is that there is no evidence that that council ever met.
Both Catholic Christianity, and Orthodox Christianity assert that since the texts are found in the LXX, they were used by Jews, and as such, should be treated as the Word of God.

In passing, I’ll point out that Lutherans accept the Catholic Deuteorcanonical books, and Methodist accept the Anglican Dueterocanonical books. However, Lutherans, Methodists, and Anglicans tend to pay very little attention to that material.
Why don’t KJV or NIT books have them?
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When the KJV was originally published, it did contain them. There was a period in British history, when publishing the KJV, without those books was a criminal offense. IIRC, the sentence was three years in gaol.

When publishers discovered that they could sell a Bible without those books, for the same price as one with those books, their decision was to print them without the books, to increase their profit.

The final blow came with Missionary Societies providing, and translating just the 66 book Canon. This began, roughly in 1800.

All that said, you can still buy the KJV that includes those books. However, they probably aren’t at your local book store. You’ll probably have to go to an explicitly Catholic, Anglican, or Orthodox Christian bookstore, to buy a copy that contains that material.
a) The Peshitta originally excluded:
  • 2 Peter;
  • 2 John;
  • 3 John;
  • Jude;
  • Revelation;
b) Marcian, and Gnostic Christianity rejected the Old Testament;

c) Some groups that arose out of the Restoration Movement have relegated the Old Testament to “secondary status”; (Good reading, but not Canonical.)

d) Discussion of the Ethiopian Canon of Eighty One is a discussion unto itself.

xan

jonathon
 
The Catholic bible has always had 73 books. Only in the later periods of the Reformation were the 7 books removed by Protestant authors.

Pope Damascus, in 325 AD, prompted by the Council of Rome, wrote a decree listing the present OT and NT canon of 73 books.

The Council of Hippo (in N. Africa) in AD 383 approved the present OT and NT canon of 73 books.

The Council of Carthage (in N. Africa) in AD 397, approved the same OT and NT canon of 73 books. This is the same Council that many Protestants take as authority for the NT canon of books.

Pope St. Innocent I, (401-417) in AD 405, approved the 73-book canon and closed the canon of the bible.

The great majority of the OT quotations found in the NT are from the Septuagint.

Protestant authors Archer and Chirichingo, for example, list 340 places where the NT cites the Septuagint but only 33 places where it cites the Hebrew canon…by this count, the NT writers quote from the Septuagint over 90% of the time.

The Protestant OT is based on the Hebrew canon used by the Hebrew speaking Jews in Palestine.

The Hebrew canon continued to be debated by Jewish rabbinacal schools until the third century.

Which OT would you rather use-the OT used by Jesus, the NT writers and the early church, or the OT used by later Jews who had rejected Jesus and persecuted Christianity?

If your bible includes all 73 books, you follow Jesus and the early Church. If your bible omits the 7 books, you follow non-Christian rabbis and Martin Luther-a man who wanted to throw out even more books (James, Esther, Revelation), and who deliberately ADDED THE WORD “ALONE” to Sacred Scripture in his German translation to Romans 3:28! (Fr. F. Chacon and Jim Burham, "Beginning Apologetics 1, How to Explain and Defend the Catholic Faith).

Don’t listen to me. Read the Bible and early Church History.

Mark
 
Two important points to remember:

First: The New Testatment also had seven Deuterocanonical Books - the same ones that Martin Luther also tried to remove. They include the following: Hebrews, James, Jude, 2 Peter, 2 John, 3 John, and Revelation.

Second: The New Testament Canon that we have today and is shared with both Protestants and Catholics without dispute, was defined at the same councils (as noted in a prior post on this thread) as the Old Testament.

Basically, either one must accept that the entire 73 book canon is inspired by God, or reject the New Testament as it stands today and start over from scratch. There were about 200 different books contending for the New Testament canon at the time is was defined.

Of course, the shorter Protestant canon has become very much a part of their tradition, and the particular books chosen are still considered to be canonical by all Christians; so outside of a handful of scholars who are interested in revising the canon, it is likely to remain as it is.
 
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