Biblical basis for Catholicism - a comprehensive list (work in progress)

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The_Scott

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Hi everyone!

So I’ve decided to devout a large amount of time in listing Catholic doctrine/dogma/tradition, finding the biblical evidence, and placing it all in one document. I suppose I’m creating this thread both for the benefit of myself and the benefit of you all.

I should warn, though, that the list will be very long, since I copy/paste the actual quote to the document too.

I’ll copy/paste what I have, so far, in the next post. If you have any suggestions/comments or anything that I should add, please don’t hesitate! If you suggest/correct something, I’ll edit the post appropiately! 👍

Thanks!

Scott
 
TOPICS IN THIS POST:
Transubstantiation
Faith and Works for Salvation (Pt 1)

**Transubstantiation
**
“I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.” – John 6: 51

“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.” – John 6:53

[Christ said:] “Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life. I am the bread of life. Your ancestors ate the manna in the desert, but they died; this is the bread that comes down from heaven so that one may eat it and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world."
The Jews quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us (his) flesh to eat?”
Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him. Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me.This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever.”
These things he said while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum. Then many of his disciples who were listening said, “This saying is hard; who can accept it?”
Since Jesus knew that his disciples were murmuring about this, he said to them, “Does this shock you? What if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? It is the spirit that gives life, while the flesh is of no avail. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But there are some of you who do not believe.” Jesus knew from the beginning the ones who would not believe and the one who would betray him. And he said, “For this reason I have told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by my Father.” As a result of this, many (of) his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him. – John 6:47–6:66

Works and Faith for Salvation

"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?’ Then I will declare to them solemnly, ‘I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers.’” – Matthew 7: 21-23

“Everyone who listens to these words of mine and acts on them will be like a wise man who built his house on rock. The rain fell, the floods came, and the winds blew and buffeted the house. But it did not collapse; it had been set solidly on rock. And everyone who listens to these words of mine but does not act on them will be like a fool who built his house on sand. The rain fell, the floods came, and the winds blew and buffeted the house. And it collapsed and was completely ruined.” – Matthew 7:24-27

“I tell you, on the day of judgment people will render an account for every careless word they speak. By your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned." – Matthew 12: 36-37

“For the Son of Man will come with his angels in his Father’s glory, and then he will repay everyone according to his conduct.” – Matthew 16:27

Then Peter said to him in reply, “We have given up everything and followed you. What will there be for us?” – Matthew 19: 27

“And then many will be led into sin; they will betray and hate one another. Many false prophets will arise and deceive many; and because of the increase of evildoing, the love of many will grow cold. But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached throughout the world as a witness to all nations, and then the end will come. When you see the desolating abomination spoken of through Daniel the prophet standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), then those in Judea must flee to the mountains, a person on the housetop must not go down to get things out of his house, a person in the field must not return to get his cloak. Woe to pregnant women and nursing mothers in those days. Pray that your flight not be in winter or on the Sabbath,” – Matthew 24:10-20
 
TOPICS IN THIS POST:
Faith and Works for Salvation (Pt 2)
Use of Images

“Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you” – Matthew 28: 19-20

He said to them in reply, “My mother and my brothers are those who hear the word of God and act on it.” – Luke 8:21

There was a scholar of the law who stood up to test him and said, “Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” Jesus said to him, “What is written in the law? How do you read it?” He said in reply, “You shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, with all your being, with all your strength, and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.” He replied to him, “You have answered correctly; do this and you will live.” – Luke 10:25-28

“Do not be amazed at this, because the hour is coming in which all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and will come out, those who have done good deeds to the resurrection of life, but those who have done wicked deeds to the resurrection of condemnation.“ - John 5:28-29

By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God, who will repay everyone according to his works: eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works, but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness. --Romans 2:6-8

For it is not those who hear the law who are just in the sight of God; rather, those who observe the law will be justified. – Romans 2:13

They show that the demands of the law are written in their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even defend them on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge people’s hidden works through Christ Jesus. – Romans 2:15-16

Circumcision means nothing, and uncircumcision means nothing; what matters is keeping God’s commandments. - 1 Corinthians 7:19

And if I have the gift of prophecy and comprehend all mysteries and all knowledge; if I have all faith so as to move mountains but do not have love, I am nothing. If I give away everything I own, and if I hand my body over so that I may boast but do not have love, I gain nothing.-- 1 Corinthians 13:2-3

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive recompense, according to what he did in the body, whether good or evil. – 2 Corinthians 5:10

So then, my beloved, obedient as you have always been, not only when I am present but all the more now when I am absent, work out your salvation with fear and trembling. For God is the one who, for his good purpose, works in you both to desire and to work. – Philippians 2:12-13

Be doers of the word and not hearers only, deluding yourselves. For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks at his own face in a mirror. He sees himself, then goes off and promptly forgets what he looked like. – James 1:22

Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works. – James 2:20-22

See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. – James 2:24

The way we may be sure that we know him is to keep his commandments. Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever keeps his word, the love of God is truly perfected in him. This is the way we may know that we are in union with him: whoever claims to abide in him ought to live (just) as he lived. Beloved, I am writing no new commandment to you but an old commandment that you had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word that you have heard. – 1 John 2:3-7

Here is what sustains the holy ones who keep God’s commandments and their faith in Jesus. I heard a voice from heaven say, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.” “Yes,” said the Spirit, “let them find rest from their labors, for their works accompany them.” - Revelation 14:12-13

The sea gave up its dead; then Death and Hades gave up their dead. All the dead were judged according to their deeds. - Revelation 20:13

"Behold, I am coming soon. I bring with me the recompense I will give to each according to his deeds.” - Revelation 22:12

Use of Images
The Commandment against Graven Images***
[The LORD commanded:] “You shall not carve idols for yourselves in the shape of anything in the sky above or on the earth below or in the waters beneath the earth; you shall not bow down before them or worship them. For I, the LORD, your God, am a jealous God, inflicting punishment for their fathers’ wickedness on the children of those who hate me, down to the third and fourth generation – Exodus 20:4-5

[The LORD commanded Moses and his people:] “You shall then make a propitiatory of pure gold, two cubits and a half long, and one and a half cubits wide. Make two cherubim of beaten gold for the two ends of the propitiatory, fastening them so that one cherub springs direct from each end. The cherubim shall have their wings spread out above, covering the propitiatory with them; they shall be turned toward each other, but with their faces looking toward the propitiatory.” – Exodus 25:17-20

And the LORD said to Moses, “Make a saraph and mount it on a pole, and if anyone who has been bitten looks at it, he will recover.” Moses accordingly made a bronze serpent and mounted it on a pole, and whenever anyone who had been bitten by a serpent looked at the bronze serpent, he recovered. - Numbers 21:8-9
 
TOPICS IN THIS POST:
Supremacy of the Pope/Infallibility of the Catholic Church/Issues relating the Ecclesiastic studies

**
Supremacy of the Pope /Infallibility of the Catholic Church**

Note: Simon called Peter was the first Pope for the Catholic Church, and was appointed personally by Christ Himself. There are instances (below) where Peter is listed first among the Twelve Apostles, or is given permission where others are denied.

Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” And Jesus said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.” – Matthew 16: 17-19

Note: “Peter”, in Greek, is Petros, while “rock” in Greek is petra. In Aramaic, “rock” is Cephas, and in several instances (below) is Peter called Cephas as a title.

He brought him to Jesus. Jesus looked at him and said, “You are Simon the son of John; you shall be called Cephas” (which is translated Peter). – John 1:42

[Christ said to Simon called Peter:] "The one who listens to you listens to Me, and he one who rejects you rejects Me; and he who rejects Me rejects the One who sent Me.” – Luke 10:16

And He allowed no one to accompany Him, except Peter and James and John the brother of James. – Mark 5:37

Six days later Jesus took with Him Peter and James and John his brother, and led them up on a high mountain by themselves [for the transfiguration]. – Matthew 17:1

“Simon, Simon, behold, Satan has demanded permission to sift you like wheat; but I have prayed for you, that your faith may not fail; and you, when once you have turned again, strengthen your brothers." – Luke 22: 31-32

Then Peter said to him in reply, “We have given up everything and followed you. What will there be for us?” – Matthew 19: 27

Note: Notice that, above, Peter is speaking as a representative (Vicar) of the Twelve.

When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord, you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Feed my lambs.” He then said to him a second time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord, you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Tend my sheep.” He said to him the third time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” Peter was distressed that he had said to him a third time, “Do you love me?” and he said to him, “Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you.” (Jesus) said to him, "Feed my sheep.” – John 21: 15-17

[To Simon Peter, Jesus said:] “Amen, amen, I say to you, when you were younger, you used to dress yourself and go where you wanted; but when you grow old, you will stretch out your hands, and someone else will dress you and lead you where you do not want to go." – John 21:18

**Note: **The above quote is, more than likely, a prophecy for the traditional death of St. Peter. Peter was crucified upside-down in Rome, circa 60 AD.

And He said to them, “Whose likeness and inscription is this?” They said to Him, “Caesar’s.” Then He said to them, “Then render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s; and to God the things that are God’s.” – Matthew 22: 20-21

Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every human institution, whether to a king as the one in -authority, or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and the praise of those who do right. For such is the will of God that by doing right you may silence the ignorance of foolish men. Act as free men, and do not use your freedom as a covering for evil, but use it as bondslaves of God. Honor all people, love the brotherhood, fear God, honor the king. – 1 Peter 2:13-17
 
TOPICS IN THIS POST:
Issues concerning Mary, including her Ever Virginity, the title “Mother of God”, Immaculate Conception, and Assumption into Heaven

**
Marian Devotion/Issues Concerning Mary**
“Brother” and the Perpetual Virginity of Mary***

So Abram said to Lot: "Let there be no strife between you and me, or between your herdsmen and mine, for we are kinsmen.” - Genesis 13:8

**Note: ** The word “kinsman” here, in Hebrew, is literally translated to “brother.” The word for “brother” in the Hebrew language is אָח ('ach), which is used in the Torah. Also, of course, Abram is not the literal brother to Lot, but his uncle.

He was told, “Your mother and your brothers are standing outside and they wish to see you.” He said to them in reply, “My mother and my brothers are those who hear the word of God and act on it.” - Luke 8:21

Note: The word for “brother” above is ἀδελφός (adelphos) in Greek. It could mean a blood relation, as in a literal brother; or a kinsman/fellow-countryman.

[Many people said:]“Is he not the carpenter, the son of Mary, and the brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon??” – Mark 6:3
Note: The Greek term ὁ υἱὸς τῆς Μαρίας means “the son of Mary.” The Greek ὁ is the definite article, meaning the, not the indefinite article τις, meaning “a certain.”

Among them were Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of James and Joseph, and the mother of the sons of Zebedee. – Matthew 27:56 (Same James and Joseph “brothers of the Lord” (above), same Mary as John 19:25 (below))

Standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother and his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary of Magdala. – John 19:25

But Mary said to the angel, "How can this be, since I have no relations with a man?” – Luke 1:34

When Jesus saw his mother and the disciple there whom he loved, he said to his mother, “Woman, behold, your son.” Then he said to the disciple, “Behold, your mother.” And from that hour the disciple took her into his home. – John 19: 26-27

Immaculate Conception of Mary

[The LORD said to the snake] “I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; He will strike at your head, while you strike at his heel." – Genesis 3:15

One alone is my dove, my perfect one,
her mother’s chosen,
the dear one of her parent.
The daughters saw her and declared her fortunate,
the queens and concubines, and they sang her praises --Song of Songs 6:9

And coming to her, he said, “Hail, favored one! The Lord is with you.” – Luke 1:28

Then the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God.” – Luke 1:30

When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the infant leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth, filled with the holy Spirit, cried out in a loud voice and said, "Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb.” – Luke 1:41-2

[Mary said,] “For he has looked upon his handmaid’s lowliness; behold, from now on will all ages call me blessed.” – Luke 1:48
Then the dragon became angry with the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring, those who keep God’s commandments and bear witness to Jesus. – Revelation 12:17

The Assumption of Mary into Heaven

Pope Pius XII: The Immaculate Mother of God, the ever Virgin Mary, having completed the course of her earthly life, was assumed body and soul into heavenly glory.

"Arise, LORD, come to your resting place, you and your majestic ark.” – Psalms 132:8

A great sign appeared in the sky, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. She was with child and wailed aloud in pain as she labored to give birth. – Revelation 12:1–2

Then the dragon became angry with the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring, those who keep God’s commandments and bear witness to Jesus. – Revelation 12:17
Title ‘Mother of God’
Behold, the virgin shall be with child and bear a son, and they shall name him Emmanuel," which means “God is with us.” - Matthew 1:23

And the angel said to her in reply, "The holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. Therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God.” – Luke 1:35

[Elizabeth says,] “And how does this happen to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?” – Luke 1:43
 
Love the enthusiasm! But bro, you are merely duplicating work that others have done, and done better. Before you start out on bringing a great idea to life, check on what’s already out there. Then maybe you can do something a little different, put your own personal stamp on it.
 
Apollos said:
Love the enthusiasm! But bro, you are merely duplicating work that others have done, and done better. Before you start out on bringing a great idea to life, check on what’s already out there. Then maybe you can do something a little different, put your own personal stamp on it.
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Hi Apollos!

I appreciate the suggestion! I suppose that’s what I get for not searching first. 😉

But to be honest, my intent wasn’t necessarily to put my own stamp on it, but to make a just-the-facts list of passages. That way, if someone says: “The Assumption of Mary isn’t Biblical!” we can easily go here (or some other thread) and simply copy/paste the passages. Just a simple guide, I wanted.

God bless.

Scott
 
I’m always impressed when lists like this come out, but I wonder if they aren’t self-defeating in a way when talking to Protestants. It seems to me that such a list gives credence to the idea of sola-scriptura. I’ve seen people disprove sola scriptura using scripture, which I think is clever, but I think in the main it just leads to squabbling over how to resolve two conflicting verses. The Catholic Church relies on more than scripture as a basis for the faith, and until a person accepts that, you won’t get very far with him. From my conversations with people, these lists don’t really do much good until the person has pretty much already decided that the Catholic Church is correct, then he experiences an “a-ha!” moment when reading verses he never noticed before (as Marcus Grodi puts it).

I don’t mean to denigrate your effort on this list. I’m truly impressed when people put the time and energy into stuff like this.
 
panevino said:
i saw this on another thread a while back,
i think it is what your after
great thing is that its provided in Word format so you can add your own things to it.

thecatholicconvert.webs.com/biblecheatsheet.html
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Thanks panevino!! That’s a big help! 😃
BenFischer said:
I’m always impressed when lists like this come out, but I wonder if they aren’t self-defeating in a way when talking to Protestants. It seems to me that such a list gives credence to the idea of sola-scriptura. I’ve seen people disprove sola scriptura using scripture, which I think is clever, but I think in the main it just leads to squabbling over how to resolve two conflicting verses. The Catholic Church relies on more than scripture as a basis for the faith, and until a person accepts that, you won’t get very far with him. From my conversations with people, these lists don’t really do much good until the person has pretty much already decided that the Catholic Church is correct, then he experiences an “a-ha!” moment when reading verses he never noticed before (as Marcus Grodi puts it).

I don’t mean to denigrate your effort on this list. I’m truly impressed when people put the time and energy into stuff like this.
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Oh, I understand what you mean. But I feel that, to debate a sola scriptura Protestant, one must use only Scripture. Otherwise, I feel it’d be like debating the existence of God to an atheist using only the Bible. It’ll be pointless, because that atheist would say “I don’t believe the Bible – only empirical evidence such as science” and stick by it. So you’d want to use science to prove the existence of God. Likewise, a Protestant, if you were quoting from Church Fathers or the Catechism, would say: “I don’t believe the Catechism – only Scripture.”
 
The_Scott said:
Thanks panevino!! That’s a big help! 😃

Oh, I understand what you mean. But I feel that, to debate a sola scriptura Protestant, one must use only Scripture. Otherwise, I feel it’d be like debating the existence of God to an atheist using only the Bible. It’ll be pointless, because that atheist would say “I don’t believe the Bible – only empirical evidence such as science” and stick by it. So you’d want to use science to prove the existence of God. Likewise, a Protestant, if you were quoting from Church Fathers or the Catechism, would say: “I don’t believe the Catechism – only Scripture.”
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Not necessarily. The protestant approaches things from a completely different theological paradigm, and it can be quite easy to get caught in never-ending banter about the true meaning of Scripture. He might even concede the point to you, only to decide later that NT Wright has a better viewpoint on matters. Your analogy about the atheist an the Bible is a bit inadequate, since you do not completely jettison use of the Bible in the debate with the atheist, you merely supplement your argument with data that he would understand/accept. You essentially change the paradigm he views the world through by adding another facet to the discussion. This is not the same as meeting him strictly on his own terms, if that makes sense.

The goal for you should be to make him see that perhaps his entire starting presupposition (Bible alone, Bible is the source for all belief) is false; give him the “blue pill” so to speak. Once you have removed this base, then it is easier to discuss your interpretations of verses in light of Church history, the fathers, etc. Otherwise you will repeatedly run into the “traditions of men” hand wave dismissal of all your archaic source data.

Don’t get me wrong, initially it is profitable to show that there is at least a Scriptural basis for our beliefs, but I don’t go very long before I demonstrate that there doesn’t have to be. Otherwise it’s eternal deadlock. Before discussing the fine points of doctrine, sometimes a better question to ask is how does he know he has the right Bible? Why is his Bible missing seven books? Why did he let a particular surviving strain of Judaism that rejected his messiah determine his cannon for him long after the codices used by Christians were already present? Why does he accept the definitions of the Church regarding the Trinity? Why does he accept the early father defenses of the Trinity by means of Apostolic Succession if he does not believe in Apostolic Succession? Would this not make the Trinity itself possibly a flawed doctrine? If the Church had to be inspired to compile the infallible Bible, then why do we have to defend our viewing of the John 6 and the Eucharist to him when the Gospel of John was included by men that believed in the Eucharist? Does he really believe that God would have fallible men with fallible beliefs produce an infallible book that knowingly contradicts those beliefs, and continue to hold the same beliefs for 1500 years before Luther? How come Luther probably thinks he’s a heretic also? Why is the definition of orthodoxy seem to be simply “how *not *Catholic am I” rather than an honest look at history?

These are all questions that should be asked early on, way before you enter a serious discussion on intercession of saints and the Assumption of Mary. You don’t have to win the argument, these questions alone just need to cause him to reevaluate his assumptions and hear you with fresh ears. This is also why I was particularly impressed, by the way, with how Robert Sungenis handled his debate on the Assumption of Mary with James White. He did not bother with Psalms, Rev 12, Gen 3:15, etc, because he rightly understood that this would merely turn into a never ending argument on the particulars of exegesis. He got to the heart of the matter: Acts 15, does the Church have the right to make a dogmatically binding pronouncement for the faithful? He recognizes that until that obstacle is passed, protestants won’t get our “whacky” way of interpreting Scripture.
 
Nathan_Wagar said:
Not necessarily. The protestant approaches things from a completely different theological paradigm, and it can be quite easy to get caught in never-ending banter about the true meaning of Scripture. He might even concede the point to you, only to decide later that NT Wright has a better viewpoint on matters. Your analogy about the atheist an the Bible is a bit inadequate, since you do not completely jettison use of the Bible in the debate with the atheist, you merely supplement your argument with data that he would understand/accept. You essentially change the paradigm he views the world through by adding another facet to the discussion. This is not the same as meeting him strictly on his own terms, if that makes sense.

The goal for you should be to make him see that perhaps his entire starting presupposition (Bible alone, Bible is the source for all belief) is false; give him the “blue pill” so to speak. Once you have removed this base, then it is easier to discuss your interpretations of verses in light of Church history, the fathers, etc. Otherwise you will repeatedly run into the “traditions of men” hand wave dismissal of all your archaic source data.

Don’t get me wrong, initially it is profitable to show that there is at least a Scriptural basis for our beliefs, but I don’t go very long before I demonstrate that there doesn’t have to be. Otherwise it’s eternal deadlock. Before discussing the fine points of doctrine, sometimes a better question to ask is how does he know he has the right Bible? Why is his Bible missing seven books? Why did he let a particular surviving strain of Judaism that rejected his messiah determine his cannon for him long after the codices used by Christians were already present? Why does he accept the definitions of the Church regarding the Trinity? Why does he accept the early father defenses of the Trinity by means of Apostolic Succession if he does not believe in Apostolic Succession? Would this not make the Trinity itself possibly a flawed doctrine? If the Church had to be inspired to compile the infallible Bible, then why do we have to defend our viewing of the John 6 and the Eucharist to him when the Gospel of John was included by men that believed in the Eucharist? Does he really believe that God would have fallible men with fallible beliefs produce an infallible book that knowingly contradicts those beliefs, and continue to hold the same beliefs for 1500 years before Luther? How come Luther probably thinks he’s a heretic also? Why is the definition of orthodoxy seem to be simply “how *not *Catholic am I” rather than an honest look at history?

These are all questions that should be asked early on, way before you enter a serious discussion on intercession of saints and the Assumption of Mary. You don’t have to win the argument, these questions alone just need to cause him to reevaluate his assumptions and hear you with fresh ears. This is also why I was particularly impressed, by the way, with how Robert Sungenis handled his debate on the Assumption of Mary with James White. He did not bother with Psalms, Rev 12, Gen 3:15, etc, because he rightly understood that this would merely turn into a never ending argument on the particulars of exegesis. He got to the heart of the matter: Acts 15, does the Church have the right to make a dogmatically binding pronouncement for the faithful? He recognizes that until that obstacle is passed, protestants won’t get our “whacky” way of interpreting Scripture.
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:clapping:👍:tiphat::bowdown::bowdown2::amen:
 
It might be easier just to buy the book by John Salza. 😃

The Biblical Basis for the Catholic Faith
 
Nathan_Wagar said:
Before discussing the fine points of doctrine, sometimes a better question to ask is how does he know he has the right Bible? Why is his Bible missing seven books? Why did he let a particular surviving strain of Judaism that rejected his messiah determine his cannon for him long after the codices used by Christians were already present?
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I never would have thought of it that way! Thanks!! :bowdown:
 
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