Biblical Proof Text of the Trinity: All Christian Apologists welcome to join.

[Daniel_Marsh]

We all know that a word or phrase can have different meanings in different contexts. Since, there is no reason to question that John 8, is correctly preserved, Then what is you understanding of the text in question verse by verse, and please thow you ideas of John 1:1, and John 5:18 and John 10:30 into the mix too. I am just curious how you think.

 

[Valke2]

I’m no expert on John. My only point originally was that the term “Son of God” would not be something that would typically incite 1st century jews to stone someone.

 

[rbarcia]

Go back and re’read the thread. I had stated that “son of God” was a term that Jews were familiar with and would not have incited them to throw stones. You responded:

“Using that phrase as claiming you are equal to God was NOT common and it would very much be inciteful to the Jews that’s why they picked up stones to kill Jesus”

That is not quite what I had said. I said that one has to start with the assumption that Jesus is God and then look backward for proof of the assumption in the texts of the Jewish Bible. If you never heard of Jesus there is nothing in the Tanakh which points to him as Messiah or God.

**

Isaiah 9

6 For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of His government and peace
There will beno end,
Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom,
To order it and establish it with judgment and justice
From that time forward, even forever.
The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.
**

 

[Valke2]

And?

 

[zerinus]

YOu give a lot of examples that don’t mention “Son of GOd”. Again, that phrase was not uncommon. IN and of itself, it would not incite hatred in the Jewish community at the time. In fact, that phrase comes from our scipture. Jesus didn’t just make it up.

The term could be applied to a holy man, a pious individual. Someone that does miracles in God’s name. It can be found in various places, including Psalm 82, where it refers to princes/judges. It is also a term that would be applied to a king of Israel and is used as such in II Samuel, Chapter 7.

It is also used to refer to the entire people of Israel in Exodus and Hosea.

In short, the definition that Christians apply to the phrase today is different from the definition that was applied in the time of Jesus.

The expression “The Son of God” is applied in the New Testament to Jesus Christ in the unique and special way. It would take too long to analyze and discuss these verses in detail, and some need to be read in their context; but even a cursory look at them is sufficient to convince the reader that He both considered Himself, as well as being considered by others to be the Son of God in a special way, that no one else is:

Matthew 4:

3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.

Matthew 4:

6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.

Matthew 8:

29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time

Matthew 14:

33 Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.

Matthew 26:

63 But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.

Matthew 27:

40 And saying, Thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days, save thyself. If thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross.

Matthew 27:

43 He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God.

Matthew 27:

54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

Mark 1:

1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God

Mark 3:

11 And unclean spirits, when they saw him, fell down before him, and cried, saying, Thou art the Son of God.

Mark 15:

39 And when the centurion, which stood over against him, saw that he so cried out, and gave up the ghost, he said, Truly this man was the Son of God.

Luke 1:

35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Luke 4:

3 And the devil said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, command this stone that it be made bread.

Luke 4:

9 And he brought him to Jerusalem, and set him on a pinnacle of the temple, and said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down from hence

Luke 4:

41 And devils also came out of many, crying out, and saying, Thou art Christ the Son of God. And he rebuking them suffered them not to speak: for they knew that he was Christ.

Luke 8:

28 When he saw Jesus, he cried out, and fell down before him, and with a loud voice said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God most high? I beseech thee, torment me not.

John 1:

34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.

John 1:

49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.

John 5:

25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

John 9:35

35 Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God

John 10:

36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God

John 11:4

4 When Jesus heard that, he said, This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God might be glorified thereby.

John 11:

27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.

zerinus

Continued . . . /

 

[zerinus]

/. . . Continued

John 19:7

7 The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.

John 20:

31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Acts 8:

37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Acts 9:

20 And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.

Romans 1:

4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead

2 Corinthians 1:

19 For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us, even by me and Silvanus and Timotheus, was not yea and nay, but in him was yea.

Galatians 2:

20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Ephesians 4:

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ

Hebrews 4:

14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.

Hebrews 6:

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Hebrews 7:

3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.

Hebrews 10:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace

1 John 3:

8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

1 John 4:15

15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

1 John 5:

5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God

1 John 5:

10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

1 John 5:

12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

1 John 5:

13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

1 John 5:

20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

Revelation 2:

18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass

John 1:

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

John 1:

18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

John 3:

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 3:

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Hebrews 11:

17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

1 John 4:

9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

Even in the Old Testament the expression “the Son of God” has a special meaning, which did not apply to just anyone:

Daniel 3:

25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.

Here the term implies someone unique and special, which could not be applied to just anybody.

zerinus

 

[zerinus]

One other thing. It seems odd that Jews would on the spur of the moment, pick up stones to kill someone. There was a Court system in place and the use of the death penalty was extremely rare and would be carried out only from an official verdict that was given from a particular place within the courtyard of the Temple.

Of course, John’s Gospel says what it says, and I don’t expect you to question it.

The crowd was a mob. Mobs don’t appeal to “courts”. They want to dispense summary justice (Cf. Acts 21:27-36).

zerinus

 

[zerinus]

That’s another thing. Why wouldn’t Jesus submit to the Court if they called him to account? What better place for him to state his case? Who was Jesus speaking to when they picked up stones? Was it the Pharisees? If so, that makes the scenario even more unlikely in my mind.

Not to mention that had they stoned jesus, those jews would have been subject to the charge of murder and would have themselves been brought before the Sanhedrin. Or simply crucified by the ROmans for rioting.

The Jewish leaders were prejudiced against Him and so were the courts. Jesus frequently condemned and castigated them in public with the charge of hypocrisy and gross wickedness, and thus inflamed them even more. Jesus did eventually submit to their “court,” when the time was right for Him, at which He was condemned and put to death, as He had repeatedly prophesied and anticipated.

zerinus

 

[Valke2]

The expression “The Son of God” is applied in the New Testament to Jesus Christ in the unique and special way. ]

I agree that the Christian Bible uses the term in a unique way. No argument from me. I’m only saying that I don’t think it’s use would have resulted in a stoning during the time of Jesus.

 

[zerinus]

I agree that the Christian Bible uses the term in a unique way. No argument from me. I’m only saying that I don’t think it’s use would have resulted in a stoning during the time of Jesus.

The “stoning” was a gesture of defiance by the mob. It did not have any “juridical” significance according to the Law of Moses. It was a way for the mob to express their displeasure at what He had said to them. The charge of claiming to be “the Son of God,” however, was the charge for which He was eventually put to death; implying that in their eyes it carried the death penalty. How that penalty is carried out (wether by stoning or in some other way) is not of primary concern here:

Mark 14:

55 And the chief priests and all the council sought for witness against Jesus to put him to death; and found none.

56 For many bare false witness against him, but their witness agreed not together.

57 And there arose certain, and bare false witness against him, saying,

58 We heard him say, I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and within three days I will build another made without hands.

59 But neither so did their witness agree together.

60 And the high priest stood up in the midst, and asked Jesus, saying, Answerest thou nothing? what is it which these witness against thee?

61 But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?

62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

63 Then the high priest rent his clothes, and saith, What need we any further witnesses?

64 Ye have heard the blasphemy: what think ye? And they all condemned him to be guilty * of death*.

John 19:

6 When the chief priests therefore and officers saw him, they cried out, saying, Crucify him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Take ye him, and crucify him: for I find no fault in him.

7 The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.

zerinus

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

bookmark

 

[Bishopite]

[Valke2;3023464]Go back and re’read the thread. I had stated that “son of God” was a term that Jews were familiar with and would not have incited them to throw stones. You responded:

“Using that phrase as claiming you are equal to God was NOT common and it would very much be inciteful to the Jews that’s why they picked up stones to kill Jesus”

I’ve been speaking of John 8:52-59 the whole time that’s what I said about the phrase “I AM” was NOT a common phrase to use in that time. I’m not arguing for the term “Son of God” yet you keep doing so.
The Jews didn’t pick up stones because Jesus said He was the Son of God, but because He said He WAS the “I AM” refering to Exodus 3;14.

That is not quite what I had said. I said that one has to start with the assumption that Jesus is God and then look backward for proof of the assumption in the texts of the Jewish Bible. If you never heard of Jesus there is nothing in the Tanakh which points to him as Messiah or God.

Wait the Apostles didn’t assume Jesus was God, but were convince He was later.
And the Apostles as any good Jew knew the Old Testament scrolls were from God and that there would come a Messiah and the OT is replete with evidence prophesies for Jesus as the Messiah…

Betrayed by a friend,
for 30 pieces of silver: Zechariah 11:12, Psalm 41:9… Mark 14:10, Matthew 26:14-15.
Ps.41:9 Even my close friend, whom I trusted, he who shared my bread, has lifted up his heel against me.
Mk.14:10 Then Judas Iscariot, one of the Twelve, went to the chief priests to betray Jesus to them. (Mt.26:14-16; Mk.14:43-45)
Zec.11:12 I told them, “If you think it best, give me my pay; but if not, keep it.” So they paid me thirty pieces of silver. (Zec.11:13)
Mt.26:15 And asked, “What are you willing to give me if I hand him over to you?” So they counted out for him thirty silver coins. (Mt 27:3-10)

Money to be returned for a potter’s field:
Zechariah 11:13… Matthew 27:6-7.
Zec.11:13 And the Lord said to me, “Throw it to the potter”- the handsome price at which they priced me! So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the Lord to the potter.
Mt.27:6-7 The chief priests picked up the coins and said, “It is against the law to put this into the treasury, since it is blood money.” So they decided to use the money to buy the potter’s field as a burial place for foreigners. (Mt.27:3-5,8-10)

Spat and struck:
Isaiah 50:6, Matthew 26:67.
Isa.50:6 I offered my back to those who beat me, my cheeks to those who pulled out my beard; I did not hide my face from mocking and spitting.
Mk.14:65 Then some began to spit at him; they blindfolded him struck him with their fists, and said, “Prophesy!” And the guards took him and beat him. (Mt.26:27, Mk.15:17; Jn 19:1-3; 18:22)

Soldiers divided his garments and gambled for his clothing:
Psalm 22:18… Matt.27:35 (2 Prophecies)
Ps 22:18 They divide my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing.
Mt.27:35 And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots (Mk.15:24).
Crucified, “pierced through hands and feet”:Zechariah 12:10, Psalm 22:16… Matthew 27:35, John 20:27.
Ps.22:16 Dogs have surrounded me; a band of evil men has encircled me, they have pierced my hands and my feet. (Zec.12:10)
Mt.27:35 And they crucified him.
Jn. 20:25-26 Now Thomas (called Didymus)… he said to them, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it.” (Jn.19:37, 20:27)

No bones broken:
Psalm 34:20… John 19:32-36.
Ps 34:20 He protects all his bones, not one of them will be broken. (Ex 12:46)
Jn 19:33 But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs.

His side pierced:
Zechariah 12:10… John 19:34.
Zec.12:10 They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.
Jn 19:34 Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus’ side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water.
biblia.com/jesusbible/prophecies.htm

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

bump

 

[Nina19]

Thank you. Their point is that God, or Jehovah to them, cannot die. I don’t have an answer for that, but it is odd that I did point out some of those passages you supplied. When they visit again, I would like to have the armour for my belief. And an answer to their “God cannot die”.

Thanks

 

[Nina19]

Well said Manny, re Steve. The truth will set you free

 

[SempirVeritas]

Seems popular to simply cut and paste a whole lot of ___________ whenever its necessary in order to try to prove your point. “he with the most wins”

When in actuality, its rather simple in my mind.

God made it very clear from the very beggining that He alone is YHWH and besides Him there is no other Saviour, rock, redeemer. Hes also made it clear a few places that “He is not a man”…

SO, I understand the trinitarian argument that all three are God all three are one, insert and particular method you seek to explain it. However, the simple fact is, that there is only one God. Just because we use names like Jehovah Jirah, or Jehovah Nissi or whatever doesnt mean that “Jehovah Nissi” is seperate yet equal to “Jehovah Jirah” Merely its a representation of a certain attribute of YHWH…

the term elohim was applied to moses, and more aptly means master, judge. So, presence of the term “Elohim” can not directly make said ____ = Diety. other wise, Moses is also YHWH. that would be idolatrous, for God said several times “I am not a Man”././

…

ALso, Ive been lead to understand that Orthodox Judaism was the most correct form from ___ till Jesus… SO, if Orthodox Judaism was “Gods Judaism” for arguments sake. then by extension that would neccesitate that “Orthodox Judaism `s definitions, interpretations are Gods definitions, and interpretations”

Like Catholicism, Judaism basically believes that ALL present dogma and practice today, is the same as it was in the days of moses. more or less… In other words the Commandment “do not break the sabbath or work on it” was clearly defined by the Rabbis, and hence sense orthodox judiasm was correct- by God almighty.

Hence, the rabbis speaking for God must have been right in the charge that Jesus was breaking the sabbath. For God had already through the rabbis from moses on defined what work was forbidden, and Jesus was doing said work. This definition of “Work” should be viewed as containing the “Nihil Obistat, chair of peter, infallibility” claim…

SO, If the Rabbis were wrong, then what else are they wrong about. and IF the rabbis infallible declaration is wrong, then why on earth should i suddenly believe that the Catholicism is correct? because if the Rabbis guided by scripture and sacred tradition from Sinai till Jesus were wrong in an infallible dogma, than that necessitates that Catholicism can also be wrong on infallibly declared morals and dogma. so to me it appears like this:

For catholicism to be true, Orthodox Judaism must be or of been true. If orthodox Judaism is or was up till Christ true. then catholicism can not be true, for orthodox Judaism rejected Jesus messianic claims.​

the other possibility, is that the concept of sacred tradition is wrong, and that “Sola scripture” is true. But again, If SS is true today, it must also of been true pre incarnation.
and by using SS rules on the scripture of the time, there is no way to reasonably prove Jesus, because all said prophecies, or the vast majority of them, are taken clearly out of context, and mis translated. thus, ever SS test i as a “leader” when Christ was spreading his business I would of been instructed by God to apply, would not allow me to believe Jesus was messiah.

---

Basically, if you are SS and take every single prophecy that is supposed to pre figure, prophecy Christ, you cant possibly survive, for you must break the rules of SS- at least enough that is convenient for you. but then if you break one, you have no authority to critizise catholics for doing the same when is convenient for them.

If you take ST (Tradition) then, once again, enough was infallibly declared up until Christ, to clearly make it impossible for Both to be right… Orthodox Judaism can not of been Gods preferred method if catholicism is true. balance the equation… the same standards you apply to one side, must be applied to the other.

Case and point- the trinity. orthodox Judaism was very clear on strict, non trinitarian monotheism. as is evidenced by some of the gospel verses quoted. If they can be wrong about that infallibly declared dogma, then catholicism can also be wrong.

 

[AveChriste11]

Hi Jeff (SempirVeritas),

I understand what you are trying to say. I think it should be noted here that Catholicism is not an offshoot of Orthodox Judaism. There were many different strands of sects within Judaism, around the time of Jesus – the Orthodox Jews trace their roots towards the Pharisee sect. Catholicism would be more correctly termed an “older brother”

I can’t speak for what most Catholics or Orthodox believe. I personally believe that the Jews set up the Council of Jamnia, cutting out all of the deuterocanonical books to remove any references to Jesus. The Trinity was not immediately defined within the faith of Abraham, but it was developed later. My understanding is that when the Old Testament, or Tanakh refers to the “angel of the LORD” that appeared to so and so… it’s really referring to Jesus as the second Person of the Trinity before he was born.

God bless!