Big question for Muslims: Koran 5:116????

[Kadaveri]

If you’d read through the thread, you’ll see that nowhere does the Qur’an claim Mary is part of the Trinity.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

It’s not a misrepresentation, as it’s only speaking about Christians taking things for ilahayn in derogation of God, in which case Jesus (as), Mary and in some cases Priests all fall into this category in that certain qualities are given to them which in Islamic theology belong to God alone. If the Qur’an said Christians say Mary is God then that would be a totally different story of course, and would be wrong, but it doesn’t, **the only person the Qur’an ever says Christians believe is *Allah ***(ilah and Allah are not the same word remember) is Jesus Christ.

Again, 9:31 puts both Priests and Jesus (as) ‘as gods’, but I’ve yet to witness any Christian arguing that this is a misrepresentation of Christianity, most likely because the claim that the author of the Qur’an was so totally ignorant of Christianity he thought Priests were believed to be gods is too absurd for anyone to fall for, yet it uses the exact same phrasing as 5:116, only it’s Priests instead of Mary.

The fact that only Jesus is explicitly said to be God is a very good point so in that regards the “gods” are most likely not God Himself or even “lesser gods”.

A careful reading of the verse with knowledge of Christian theology would allow you to understand what is being criticized and corrected, even if it isn’t all entirely explicit. First it says ‘Jesus Christ was no more than a Messenger of God’, cutting him out of any Godhead, then that Jesus is ‘His word, that he conveyed to Mary’, the ‘word’ in Christian theology meaning Jesus (as) as part of the Godhead, but the Qur’an here shoots this down and says the word (which is ‘be’) is how God created Jesus (as), then it says ‘and a spirit from him’, shooting down the notion that ‘the spirit’ is part of the Godhead, saying that ‘the spirit’ is simply God’s power and not a separate person in any Godhead. The Qur’an then tells Christians to not say ‘three’, and that God is only one *ilah *(object of worship). Now the things that were shot down in this verse as being a ‘separate part of a Godhead’ are Jesus (as), the word, and the spirit; of course we know that in Christianity Jesus is the word, so it’s just Jesus being a separate part of a Godhead and the spirit being a separate part of a Godhead that are shot down, those two added to God Himself (the Father) make up the ‘three’ the Qur’an says not to say.

It mentions 4 things, Allah, Jesus, the word, spirit. It does not indicate the word and Jesus are the same, and doesnt even appear to realize the existence/significance of the Incarnation.

It’s quite a stretch to claim that the ‘spirit’ being mentioned in this verse criticising the Trinity as not being a separate part of a Godhead isn’t meant to have anything to do with the Trinity, that the Qur’an doesn’t know who the three hypostases of the Trinity are, and Jesus (as) and the ‘spirit’ being the only two things mentioned in a corrective fashion in a verse criticising the Trinity is just a fluke.

Here is what I see:
The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers, and say not “Three” - Cease! (it is) better for you! - Allah is only One God. Far is it removed from His Transcendent Majesty that He should have a son.
The clear subject here is Jesus, it is not clear what the “third” item is. Even the claim “He should have a son” is unclear theologically why this is wrong (eg how he understands “son”).

(Im busy at the moment but I will get to your next comments asap).

 

[Catholic_Dude]

I’m afraid you haven’t understood what I was alluding to, so allow me to make it clearer for you. The first few words I meant were:
‘They surely disbelieve who say: God is the Messiah’ and
‘They surely disbelieve who say: God is one of three’

Now, 5:72 says Christians believe Jesus ***IS ***God, yet the very next verse says Christians believe God is one of three. And since of course Jesus (as) is another one of those three separate to God, this becomes a contradiction. How can Jesus and God (read, the Father, in Christian theology) be two *separate *persons in a Godhead, yet be one and the same God? This contradiction is deliberate, since it perfectly mirrors the apparent contraidiction in Trinitarian doctrine.

It is not a contradiction, but more of a beyond human comprehension. A better way of phrasing it is ‘three persons, one divine nature’.

Now, if the Qur’an says that Christians believe the Father and Jesus (as) are one and the same God (in 5:72), then how can you interpret 5:116 as saying Christians believe in three gods? It simply cannot be done, as 5:72 shows Christians believe in one God whom they believe the ‘three’ *are *one.

I dont see where 72 makes it clear the Father and Son are ‘one and the same God’…it is unclear whether “Allah is the Messiah” means they are saying the Son is really the Father under a different appearance (which is the Modalist heresy), or if they are saying, as Mormons believe, “three gods in one purpose” (also heretical), or if they recognize the “eternally begotten son” aspect, which is the orthodox view.

As for your claim “they believe the ‘three’ are one” I see no evidence where the Koran says this about Christians. In fact it allows no such claim when it condemns:“Allah is the third of three; when there is no God save the One God.” (Also, Christians do not believe the Father is 1/3 of the Godhead.)

Going back to 4:171 …[edited for length]… the word used for ‘one’ in 4:171 is not ‘ahad’ (which means ‘one’ as in ‘only’) like in 112:1 and every other verse saying that God (Allah) is one, but wahid; which means ‘one’ as in counting (one, two, three…).

This is very significant, for (as I explained earlier) *Allah *in Arabic is by definition singular, so saying that *Allah *is one (wahid) numerically would be pleonastic and poor grammar. This is why the Qur’an always says ‘Allahu ahad’, meaning there is *only *one God, nothing wrong with that.

So why out of all places does the Qur’an turn its usual speech on its head and say that God is wahid (one numerically), when this is such a superfluous statement? Of course, the Qur’an with its extremely calculative style of wording has a very good reason for this, as saying ‘Allahu ahad’ works perfectly well in refuting polytheistic beliefs since it simply says that there is only one God, but this statement does not work against Christians since they do not believe that there is more than one god, **but they believe in *internal ***division within a Godhead. Thus, in this rare moment saying *Allah *is *wahid *is correct, as this isn’t saying that there is only one God (that’s already been established), but in contrast to the Christians saying of ‘three’ says that God is one internally, that there are no separate hypostases within the Godhead.

Christians do not believe in “internal division” but rather “internal distinction”. Using terms like “division” can be misunderstood to mean “parts” yet God is not made up of “parts”. As I said in my last post, it is hard to tell how the Koran understands the Trinity given claims like “Far is it removed from His Transcendent Majesty that He should have a son.”

This brilliant shift of wording shows that author of the Qur’an understands Christian doctrine of there being only one God who consists of three separate hypostases within a Godhead, and that the author of the Qur’an understands that Christians do not believe in three gods (otherwise he would not have changed the normal ‘ahad’ to the usually superfluous ‘wahid’).

This is fair for now, but it would help if it became clear how the Koran understands the Father-Son relationship.

And again, it’s quite a stretch to claim that the author of the Qur’an could understand Trinitarian doctrine this well to make such calculative wording to avoid error, yet would make such elementary mistakes as switching the spirit for Mary.

You made a good point in noting that only Jesus was ever explicitly called Allah, thus my original questions/comments are shown to be incorrect regarding “me and my mother for two gods beside Allah”. The new issues are where it is clearly laid out what the “third” claim is regarding, and how the Koran sees the Father-Son relationship.