Biretta

[SalesianSDB]

I actually LOVE the biretta.

My school often does skits on the life of St. John Bosco and since back then priests wore them more often, the person playing Don Bosco would always wear one. We had a Salesian priest come visit us a few months ago to tell us about Don Bosco and during his homily he brought out a biretta saying it was Don Bosco’s (even though it wasn’t).

When (and if the Lord is calling me) I become a priest I am going to wear a biretta because of the significance it has for me and it reminds me of Don Bosco which reminds me of Christ and the Salesian mission of serving the young…but I have a few more years to go.

 

[Matthew_Holford]

Actually, they don’t wear that, at least in the Papal Masses where you see a plethora of cardinals, archbishops and bishops in choir dress. I have yet to see them wearing a stole. Furthermore, when visiting cardinals go to a Mass (and are not the celebrant nor concelebrant), they only wear their choir dress and biretta. They don’t wear the stole, alb nor cope.

Somehow I misread your previous post and my thoughts were drawn along the lines of a Mass at which a bishop presides but not as a celebrant (to which my source refers). Yes, of course if bishops (of any ecclesiastical rank) are in choro they wear choir dress.

 

[PacoG]

Actually, they don’t wear that, at least in the Papal Masses where you see a plethora of cardinals, archbishops and bishops in choir dress. I have yet to see them wearing a stole. Furthermore, when visiting cardinals go to a Mass (and are not the celebrant nor concelebrant), they only wear their choir dress and biretta. They don’t wear the stole, alb nor cope.

When Cardinal DiNardo installed our bishop, he wore a cope and mitre for the installation part of the Mass and then changed into his choir dress and biretta for the rest of the Mass.

 

[Aramis]

Actually, they don’t wear that, at least in the Papal Masses where you see a plethora of cardinals, archbishops and bishops in choir dress. I have yet to see them wearing a stole. Furthermore, when visiting cardinals go to a Mass (and are not the celebrant nor concelebrant), they only wear their choir dress and biretta. They don’t wear the stole, alb nor cope.

I’ve seen stole and cope worn by a non-celebrant bishop in his throne during a mass by the rector of his Cathedral. (the ABp had a case of laryngitis…) It is rare, but it is also in the books as permitted.

 

[Matthew_Holford]

When Cardinal DiNardo installed our bishop, he wore a cope and mitre for the installation part of the Mass and then changed into his choir dress and biretta for the rest of the Mass.

That sounds unusual. Was it definitely an installation, i.e. seating the new bishop in his cathedra, or was the new bishop taking canonical possession of his new diocese, or was it your new bishop’s ordination? Did the rite take place during Mass or a liturgy of the word? If it was a Mass, was it celebrated or concelebrated?

 

[Matthew_Holford]

I’ve seen stole and cope worn by a non-celebrant bishop in his throne during a mass by the rector of his Cathedral. (the ABp had a case of laryngitis…) It is rare, but it is also in the books as permitted.

I suspect you’ve made the same mistake as I made. There is a difference between a bishop presiding at Mass and not celebrating and a bishop who is in choro. I thought Benedictgal meant a bishop presiding but she meant one in choro. If he’s presiding he wears amice, alb, cincture, pectoral cross on its cord, stole, cope, and mitre (and if in his own territory) he carries his crozier. If he’s in choro he wears choir dress. Blessed John Paul II often did what your archbishop did during the latter years of his pontificate due to ill-health.

 

[PacoG]

That sounds unusual. Was it definitely an installation, i.e. seating the new bishop in his cathedra, or was the new bishop taking canonical possession of his new diocese, or was it your new bishop’s ordination? Did the rite take place during Mass or a liturgy of the word? If it was a Mass, was it celebrated or concelebrated?

It was the Installation.

It was during a Mass and it was con-celebrated.

 

[Matthew_Holford]

It was the Installation.

It was during a Mass and it was con-celebrated.

I’m not sure now whether what happened was the norm. Usually the bishop who is the principal consecrator at an episcopal ordination would wear Mass vestments throughout. He would preside until after the new bishop was ordained and then (if the ordination was in the new bishop’s territory) the new bishop would preside for the rest of the Mass. The principal consecrator would become one of the concelebrants.

It surprises me a little that this did not happen at the event you described. I don’t know if your new bishop was newly ordained or translated from another see. Even if the latter applied I’m not sure why the installation was separated from the taking possession.

 

[PacoG]

I’m not sure now whether what happened was the norm. Usually the bishop who is the principal consecrator at an episcopal ordination would wear Mass vestments throughout. He would preside until after the new bishop was ordained and then (if the ordination was in the new bishop’s territory) the new bishop would preside for the rest of the Mass. The principal consecrator would become one of the concelebrants.

It surprises me a little that this did not happen at the event you described. I don’t know if your new bishop was newly ordained or translated from another see. Even if the latter applied I’m not sure why the installation was separated from the taking possession.

He was already a bishop. He was an auxillary in the Detroit Archdiocese. If it were an episcopal ordination, I would have said so. It wasn’t an episcopal ordination. It was an installation. I know the difference.

 

[Matthew_Holford]

He was already a bishop. He was an auxillary in the Detroit Archdiocese. If it were an episcopal ordination, I would have said so. It wasn’t an episcopal ordination. It was an installation. I know the difference.

I fully accepted what you said in post #27. In my response in post #28 I did not say that you didn’t know the difference.

I was commenting on what Cardinal DiNardo did, which seemed a bit strange. I then described what would happen at an ordination. In this case I know it didn’t apply.

Basically, what I was saying is that I would have expected in this particular circumstance for the Cardinal to have presided over the liturgy up to the point where your new bishop was installed in his cathedra. Then for him to become one of the concelebrants while your new bishop presided.

I am still a bit puzzled why the installation and taking possession were separated.

If the new bishop had not been ordained as a bishop one would have expected ordination, taking canonical possession and installation at the same Mass.

If this case one would have expected taking canonical possession and installation at the same Mass.

If your new bishop had taken canonical possession at another time I would presume he could have presided over his own installation Mass from the outset.

I think Cardinal DiNardo could have installed him while in choir dress even without a stole.

 

[PacoG]

I am still a bit puzzled why the installation and taking possession were separated.

If the new bishop had not been ordained as a bishop one would have expected ordination, taking canonical possession and installation at the same Mass.

If this case one would have expected taking canonical possession and installation at the same Mass.

If your new bishop had taken canonical possession at another time I would presume he could have presided over his own installation Mass from the outset.

I think Cardinal DiNardo could have installed him while in choir dress even without a stole.

Our diocese runs along on 200 mile east-west axis in South Texas. The see is in the largest and easternmost city. The cathedral, while an old and beautiful church is small. The bishop chose to be installed at the local Marian shrine/minor basilica–the largest church in the diocese which is roughly in the geographic center. It has also become tradition that the installation mass be at the Basilica as his three previous successors had been installed there. The next day, the Bishop said the Mass where he took canonical possession of his cathedra and cathedral.

 

[Matthew_Holford]

Our diocese runs along on 200 mile east-west axis in South Texas. The see is in the largest and easternmost city. The cathedral, while an old and beautiful church is small. The bishop chose to be installed at the local Marian shrine/minor basilica–the largest church in the diocese which is roughly in the geographic center. It has also become tradition that the installation mass be at the Basilica as his three previous successors had been installed there. The next day, the Bishop said the Mass where he took canonical possession of his cathedra and cathedral.

Thank you for sharing that. The bishop in a diocese, which is a neighbour of diocese, was ordained in a different church than the cathedral. I think, if my memory serves me well, that was because the church where he was ordained is larger than the cathedral. It may also have been for the convenience of those who attended: the cathedral is in a small rural town nowhere any motorways; the church he chose was in a large city near the motorway network.

 

[SKWill]

When Cardinal DiNardo installed our bishop, he wore a cope and mitre for the installation part of the Mass and then changed into his choir dress and biretta for the rest of the Mass.

Paco, you’re in Brownsville, right? It appears to me that Bishop Flores’s installation Mass was conducted similar to Bishop Vasquez’s installation in Austin, also in early 2010. Cardinal DiNardo, as the metropolitan archbishop presided over the installation at the beginning of the Mass, wearing a stole, cope and miter, and then changed to choir dress allowing newly installed Bishop Vasquez to preside over the rest of the Mass in the presence of the Cardinal.

The questions I have – and I think the answers address Matthew’s questions – is the protocol for the installation of already ordained bishops different when the installing metropolitan is a Cardinal than when he’s a non-Cardinal? For purposes of concelebration, do Cardinals sufficiently outrank other bishops so that Cardinals can not be concelebrants under a non-Cardinal principal celebrants? Or is this a personal decision of Cardinal DiNardo’s to deflect the spotlight off of him?

Back in June 2009, when the Archdiocese of Galveston-Houston held its Mass to kick-off the Year of the Priest, the date of that Mass coincided with then-Auxiliary Bishop Vasquez’s anniversary of ordination as a priest. Instead of the Cardinal presiding as the AGH ordinary, he attended in choir dress, with Bishop Vasquez “presiding in the presence of the Cardinal.” The Cardinal even allowed Bishop Vasquez to preside from the Cathedra.

 

[PacoG]

Paco, you’re in Brownsville, right? It appears to me that Bishop Flores’s installation Mass was conducted similar to Bishop Vasquez’s installation in Austin, also in early 2010. Cardinal DiNardo, as the metropolitan archbishop presided over the installation at the beginning of the Mass, wearing a stole, cope and miter, and then changed to choir dress allowing newly installed Bishop Vasquez to preside over the rest of the Mass in the presence of the Cardinal.

The questions I have – and I think the answers address Matthew’s questions – is the protocol for the installation of already ordained bishops different when the installing metropolitan is a Cardinal than when he’s a non-Cardinal? For purposes of concelebration, do Cardinals sufficiently outrank other bishops so that Cardinals can not be concelebrants under a non-Cardinal principal celebrants? Or is this a personal decision of Cardinal DiNardo’s to deflect the spotlight off of him?

Back in June 2009, when the Archdiocese of Galveston-Houston held its Mass to kick-off the Year of the Priest, the date of that Mass coincided with then-Auxiliary Bishop Vasquez’s anniversary of ordination as a priest. Instead of the Cardinal presiding as the AGH ordinary, he attended in choir dress, with Bishop Vasquez “presiding in the presence of the Cardinal.” The Cardinal even allowed Bishop Vasquez to preside from the Cathedra.

Yes. I am in the Brownsville Diocese. (Bishop Daniel Flores has been a blessing.)

I think you might be right in your observation about rank…I seem to remember that when back when Bishop Pena was installed by then-Archbishop Patrick Flores of San Antonio (when San Antonio was the only Metropolitan in Texas), Archbishop Flores vested as a con-celebrant. Similarly, at Bishop Daniel Flores’ installation, the Papal Nuncio Archbishop Sambi vested as a con-celebrant.

BTW…Bishop Flores had two cardinals at his installation…Cardinal diNardo and Cardinal Adam Maida–his former boss in Detroit.

I wonder if Cardinal DiNardo (as the senior prelate in Texas) will preside over the installation of the new archbishop of San Antonio when one is named.

 

[benedictgal]

Yes. I am in the Brownsville Diocese. (Bishop Daniel Flores has been a blessing.)

I think you might be right in your observation about rank…I seem to remember that when back when Bishop Pena was installed by then-Archbishop Patrick Flores of San Antonio (when San Antonio was the only Metropolitan in Texas), Archbishop Flores vested as a con-celebrant. Similarly, at Bishop Daniel Flores’ installation, the Papal Nuncio Archbishop Sambi vested as a con-celebrant.

BTW…Bishop Flores had two cardinals at his installation…Cardinal diNardo and Cardinal Adam Maida–his former boss in Detroit.

I wonder if Cardinal DiNardo (as the senior prelate in Texas) will preside over the installation of the new archbishop of San Antonio when one is named.

I believe that this will fall to Archbishop Sambi.

 

[Matthew_Holford]

The questions I have – and I think the answers address Matthew’s questions – is the protocol for the installation of already ordained bishops different when the installing metropolitan is a Cardinal than when he’s a non-Cardinal? For purposes of concelebration, do Cardinals sufficiently outrank other bishops so that Cardinals can not be concelebrants under a non-Cardinal principal celebrants? Or is this a personal decision of Cardinal DiNardo’s to deflect the spotlight off of him?

I believe the normal practice would be for the most senior bishop present to be the principal celebrant of a concelebrated Mass. However, at a bishop’s ordination or installation, if they take place within the new bishop’s diocese, he has the privilege of being the principal concelebrant even though bishops of a higher rank are present.

What puzzles me is why they had the installation before the taking possession. Until a bishop takes possession he isn’t the bishop of the diocese. In this case where he will have been translated from a titular see to Brownsville he does not vacate his office as an auxiliary bishop in the Archdiocese of Detroit and become the Bishop of Brownsville until he takes canonical possession. Therefore, it seems illogical that he should be installed in the cathedra of a diocese of which he is not yet the bishop.

 

[PacoG]

What puzzles me is why they had the installation before the taking possession. Until a bishop takes possession he isn’t the bishop of the diocese. In this case where he will have been translated from a titular see to Brownsville he does not vacate his office as an auxiliary bishop in the Archdiocese of Detroit and become the Bishop of Brownsville until he takes canonical possession. Therefore, it seems illogical that he should be installed in the cathedra of a diocese of which he is not yet the bishop.

There is a cathedra at the Basilica. (I don’t know if it properly belongs to the bishop or the Pope since all minor basilicas have a tie to the Holy See.) Bishop Flores took possession of that cathedra. It’s possible that he took possession of that one and then symbolically took possession of the one in Brownsville the next day. It is also possible that he took possession of his cathedra and cathedral at a Vespers at the Cathedral the day before the installation.

Here’s some links…
Vespers the day before Installation. brownsvilleherald.com/articles/religious-108103-flores-people.html

Mass of installation. themonitor.com/video/?videoId=64603091001&lineupId=1155331309

 

[Matthew_Holford]

There is a cathedra at the Basilica. (I don’t know if it properly belongs to the bishop or the Pope since all minor basilicas have a tie to the Holy See.) Bishop Flores took possession of that cathedra. It’s possible that he took possession of that one and then symbolically took possession of the one in Brownsville the next day. It is also possible that he took possession of his cathedra and cathedral at a Vespers at the Cathedral the day before the installation.

Here’s some links…
Vespers the day before Installation. brownsvilleherald.com/articles/religious-108103-flores-people.html

Mass of installation. themonitor.com/video/?videoId=64603091001&lineupId=1155331309

That’s probably what happened.

 

[silvergrasshopp]

I’m now staying in London, UK. Some priests at the London Oratory retains the use of biretta, regardless of which form of the Mass they are celebrating. Moreover, the oratory celebrates on Sundays at 11.00 an OF solemn high mass in which the celebrant and the two deacons all wear it (even if they normally don’t). Also, at another parish named Corpus Christi, the priest usually wears a biretta when celebrating an OF Mass, and even a maniple (not usually worn in OF Masses at the oratory). On both parishes all Masses are celebrated facing God.
(I am not saying that these long-established practices at the oratory and Corpus Christi are all lawful. Any comments?)

 

[Don_Ruggero]

We are not supposed to revive threads which have gone dormant.

This thread has had no activity in over seven years and several of the contributors are either banned or inactive in the forum for years.