Birth control, etc

[Roman_Army]

mike182d:

If contraception and NFP are no different, why *not *use NFP?

No different? They are very much different. Contraception is a sin and it is a form of abortion. Natural Family Planning is not a sin and not abortive, it is a natural process made by God, and is not a form of abortion. Natural Family Planning requires responsibility. Contraception destroys that responsibility. Sex is not for the purpose of lust. Sex is for # 1, producing offspring. # 2, self giving of love to the spouse. You can’t have #2 without respecting #1, which is the main purpose. If the couple truly loves each other, they would have no problem with faithfully waiting for the infertile natural period (if due to circumstances are unable to support further offspring).

 

[mike182d]

**No different? They are very much different. **

Oh, I know this. That’s why I posed the question. Most couples who want to rationalize their use of contraception will claim that there is no difference, so its ok. I ask them, if there is no difference why not use NFP? Then the difference becomes clear as day

 

[Roman_Army]

mike182d:

Oh, I know this. That’s why I posed the question. Most couples who want to rationalize their use of contraception will claim that there is no difference, so its ok. I ask them, if there is no difference why not use NFP? Then the difference becomes clear as day

** lol, true.**

 

[SoledadLuLu]

The pill is an abortafacient - it kills conceived infants by preventing them from implanting on the wall of the uterus. They are then expelled from the mother. The pill is frequently described as stopping ovulation. This is not the full truth. If it were, one might assume you could “postpone” your fertile years by holding the eggs until it were more convenient to attempt to get pregnant.

This is totally incorrect. The birth control pill STOPS OVULATION which is the release of the egg. This is the whole truth. There are drugs that will weaken the effect of the pill and couples are surprised to find themselves pregnant.

The morning after pill & some IUDs those are hormones & instruments that prevent the fertilized egg from implanting on the wall of the uterus. The morning after pill forces the woman to begin menstruating thus shedding the buildup of blood and tissue for the fertilized egg to implant itself.

Be careful of what you post please. I would hate to have someone who is using the pill to think they are killing an unborn baby, when that is not the case.

 

[duskyjewel]

Actually, one of the secondary functions of the birth control pill is to thin the lining of the uterus, to make it more difficult for a fertilized egg to implant. It is a “back up” for when the primary function of stopping ovulation fails.

This is in the package insert of every birth control pill. So why don’t YOU do some research before you just assume people are wrong?

When I found out about this secondary function, it ended forever my ability to use birth control pills. And I had been fine with it before… I had an anxiety attack every time I took one until I finally had to stop.

 

[Nickkname]

yochumjy - why is one wrong and not the other? Sorry bout that.

mike182d - I’m not saying I’m planning on using artificial birth control, because I’m not, but how do I respond to people who say “if they’re the same, why not use the Pill?”

They’re not the same. The Catechism explains it best:

2370 Periodic continence, that is, the methods of birth regulation based on self-observation and the use of infertile periods, is in conformity with the objective criteria of morality.157 These methods respect the bodies of the spouses, encourage tenderness between them, and favor the education of an authentic freedom. In contrast, “every action which, whether in anticipation of the conjugal act, or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible” is intrinsically evil:158

Thus the innate language that expresses the total reciprocal self-giving of husband and wife is overlaid, through contraception, by an objectively contradictory language, namely, that of not giving oneself totally to the other. This leads not only to a positive refusal to be open to life but also to a falsification of the inner truth of conjugal love, which is called upon to give itself in personal totality… the difference, both anthropological and moral, between contraception and recourse to the rhythm of the cycle . . . involves in the final analysis two irreconcilable concepts of the human person and of human sexuality.159

 

[mdr]

Reid, Cardenio, y’all might want to check out some additional resources on this.

The Couple-to-Couple League, www.ccli.org, teaches and supports couples in the use and reasons for NFP. They have some really great material, and they back up every medical and/or scientific assertion with references. No assumptions or manufactured numbers, just facts from published research, with the full reference so we can check it out ourselves.

Mary Beth Bonacci also has been teaching about JPII’s theology of the body for many years. She has some published materials and online essays at www.reallove.net. She’s straight-up orthodox about chastity, and her example of the chaste single life adds a nice balance to the Kippleys’ example of chaste marriage in CCLI.

Good luck and God bless-

 

[DSF]

There is an amazing cd out by Prof. Janet Smith that explains the Catholic Church’s stance on birth control. You can probably get it from your local diocese. It is called “Contraception: Why not?”

Prof. Smith explains the subject in a straight-forward, easy to understand manner. I have listened to the cd several times and have recently given one to a family member and plan to give one to a friend.

 

[debraran]

I think what turns a lot of people off NFP is that is ISN"T like other birth control, there is a lot of testing and periods when you can’t have sex and it doesn’t work for some with very irregular cycles, have trouble with stress and things that alter thier bodies and might have certain mild mental problems. Someone that is OCD or scrupulous would be obsessd by it, someone with anxiety would find it overwhelming. I’ve read posts where couples were torn apart by it, although I know some grow closer. Fear, if they get pregnant and could get very ill, would kill any passion toward the sexual act for me…I wouldn’t want to deny my husband but using more than one birth control method would probably make me feel safe. I don’t think you should ask God to just protect you, you have to use common sense. You shouldn’t cross a busy street and say, “I know God will not let a car hit me”, he expects you to know how to keep the cars from hitting you. I can’t believe if you have 5 children and could leave them motherless if you get pregnant again, that was meant to be. You wouldn’t not take insulin if you knew you would die (or I hope not) because you should be able to live without it. Sex isn’t a "right’ in life, but in marriage, it is expected by most and there should be a lot more discussion ahead of time, if you are to use NFP.
Nothing is perfect, but you have to take care of yourself and you are responsible for the children you bring into this world, you don’t play russian roulette and hope for the best.
I am not bashing NFP, but I know it works the best for families that can afford a large one (because many do and that scares others) and can stay home or have husbands that can support them on 1 salary. I had that for years, but we don’t have any college money or savings. It was my sacrifice, I do realize though that many others can’t do that and are hanging on by a thread just trying to put food on the table. I can’t judge the fear I see in their eyes…it’s scary times today.

 

[mdr]

Debraran, we used NFP only for 8 years and had no surprises. A couple in our first childbirth class had used it to delay starting their family (other serious health issues/family obligations) for 11 years.

Yes, I do know that regular cycles make it much easier and entail much less abstinence. I also know that there is a great deal of support available, including information about how to help regulate one’s cycles, through the Couple-to-Couple League. Since they provide full references to any and all stats in their materials, I feel very confident recommending them.

For real, factual info on effectiveness of NFP, follow this link: ccli.org/nfp/basics/effectiveness-p01.php.

Finally, it’s not just about the method of spacing or limiting babies. It’s also about attitude. Yes, we absolutely must use prudence and consider our existing responsibilities; it is also good for us to remember the example of St. Gianna: saintgianna.org/main.htm. It’s not easy to balance prudence with trust, but it can be done…together.

 

[hasikelee]

yochumjy - why is one wrong and not the other? Sorry bout that.

mike182d - I’m not saying I’m planning on using artificial birth control, because I’m not, but how do I respond to people who say “if they’re the same, why not use the Pill?”

Well, my favourite response is actually from Christopher West (www.christopherwest.com).

“What’s the difference between killing Granny NOW to get your inheritance and waaaaiting until Granny naturally dies? They both have the same result.”

I also like to focus more on the health aspect of birth control, especially when talking with other women. Why should they have to take a cocktail of synthetic hormones everyday, putting them at greater risk for blood clots, cancers, paralysis, numbness, bloating, weight gain, breast tenderness, lowered libido, etc?

And the CDC has already found condoms to be about 85% effective with 100% perfect use. Heck, even the old-school rythm method can have a better luck of the draw than that, lol!

 

[debraran]

Depending on what you read, condoms can be effective 85-98% of the time, usually if they rip or aren’t used correctly, the rate drops. Most doctors, when giving advice, usually say to use it with a diaphram or foam, somthing else to help make it 100%. A deacon at my old church always spoke against the pill because of the chemicals, etc. but said barrier methods were better. (I know he shouldn’t have said this, but he was trying to be realistic at the time) He knew, right or wrong, most couples getting married today in Catholic churches have either had sex, lived together or will be using brith control. You can say it’s wrong, some priests, like Fr. Echert on EWTN, will have them move apart 6 months ahead of time, etc. but you have to realize you wont have very many couples if you say, 100%, you can’t do this. The church wont lose them which is why it continues. A small group of faithful people wont pay the bills. You have to hope to get the younger ones to change (and I see that somewhat more now than 10 years ago) I will try my best to educate my 3 correctly.
I pesonally have never known a couple using NFP that didn’t care if they had 2 or 4 or 6 children and were prepared for it. At my church 2 couples have 5 under 6 years old!! If my husband had been more accepting of that, I would have tried it, but I think I would have had trouble in my 40’s when my cycles went hay wire. The stress would have did me in! Again, I think common sense should prevail if your’e in danger with pregnancy and I don’t think leaving children motherless is a good thing to do…it’s not a natural pattern and not everyone has family around. Haviing your kids in foster care or having to move, not have your presence when they needed you because you chose to take chances having a child when you knew it would really hurt you, seems odd to me. Martyrs have their place, but my mom always stressed, if you bring a child into the world, you should do everything you can to educate, love and be there for them until adulthood.

Another reason I don’t understand the leaving of children in God’s hands, is that biology and God might be connected if he wishes, but many babies are born that wouldn’t be under the best conditions and I wouldn’t say God would want that. A husband has an affair (as with my coworker) and she’s pregnant and so it the girlfriends, a 13 year old gets pregnant with her boyfriend or a girl gets raped and gets pregnant. These things happened for various reasons but they weren’t leaving it in Gods’ hands, he couldn’t have wanted the contributing factors. Again, you have to pray that things will work out well with his help, but free will gives bad people and us regular sinners plenty of room to do harm to ourselves.

 

[brierpatch1974]

Chemical birth control is a no no i understand but what if a married couple just doesn;t have sex to keep from getting pregnant?

 

[mdr]

Chemical birth control is a no no i understand but what if a married couple just doesn;t have sex to keep from getting pregnant?

Not a problem. The essence of NFP is abstinence during the fertile times, with prayer for discernment whether the couple is called to conceive at that time. Sometimes the answer might be “yes,” and that’s part of obedience. Easy? Not always. Worth it? Oh, yeah!

-mdr

 

[mdr]

Depending on what you read, condoms can be effective 85-98% of the time, usually if they rip or aren’t used correctly, the rate drops. Most doctors, when giving advice, usually say to use it with a diaphram or foam, somthing else to help make it 100%. .

Debraran, I don’t dispute that you heard “most doctors” give this advice, but I do dispute that using condoms with foam and/or diaphragms provides 100% protection from conception. Sorry, it’s not 100%. (Name a method, I’ve known someone in my life who has had a surprise pregnancy with it, even surgery.)

Did you happen to follow the CCLI link that I posted before? You needn’t fear brainwashing or anything like that; CCLI posts well-documented stats from published research, with full references so you can check it out for yourself. No need to trust the Church or anyone whose judgment you might deem biased.

A deacon at my old church always spoke against the pill because of the chemicals, etc. but said barrier methods were better. (I know he shouldn’t have said this, but he was trying to be realistic at the time) He knew, right or wrong, most couples getting married today in Catholic churches have either had sex, lived together or will be using brith control. You can say it’s wrong, some priests, like Fr. Echert on EWTN, will have them move apart 6 months ahead of time, etc. but you have to realize you wont have very many couples if you say, 100%, you can’t do this. The church wont lose them which is why it continues. A small group of faithful people wont pay the bills. You have to hope to get the younger ones to change (and I see that somewhat more now than 10 years ago) I will try my best to educate my 3 correctly.
I pesonally have never known a couple using NFP that didn’t care if they had 2 or 4 or 6 children and were prepared for it.

Well, now you know one online, if not personally.

At my church 2 couples have 5 under 6 years old!! If my husband had been more accepting of that, I would have tried it, but I think I would have had trouble in my 40’s when my cycles went hay wire. The stress would have did me in! Again, I think common sense should prevail if your’e in danger with pregnancy and I don’t think leaving children motherless is a good thing to do…it’s not a natural pattern and not everyone has family around.

Sadly, women dying in childbirth was all too commonplace and “natural” before more sanitary, modern obstetrical care became available. I can’t find the reference anymore, but I once read from a fairly reliable source that the maternal mortality rate approached 20%!

Haviing your kids in foster care or having to move, not have your presence when they needed you because you chose to take chances having a child when you knew it would really hurt you, seems odd to me. Martyrs have their place, but my mom always stressed, if you bring a child into the world, you should do everything you can to educate, love and be there for them until adulthood.

Well, of course we need to exercise prudence! Not disputing that at all.

Did you actually read any of the material about St. Gianna, beyond the sound-bite that she risked and lost her own life in order to carry her baby to term? I think that your perspective might change just a little afterward.

Another reason I don’t understand the leaving of children in God’s hands, is that biology and God might be connected if he wishes, but many babies are born that wouldn’t be under the best conditions and I wouldn’t say God would want that. A husband has an affair (as with my coworker) and she’s pregnant and so it the girlfriends, a 13 year old gets pregnant with her boyfriend or a girl gets raped and gets pregnant. These things happened for various reasons but they weren’t leaving it in Gods’ hands, he couldn’t have wanted the contributing factors. Again, you have to pray that things will work out well with his help, but free will gives bad people and us regular sinners plenty of room to do harm to ourselves.

Yes, it does, in more ways than one!

Before my teenaged daughter took the state-mandated human reproduction unit in science (anat & phys, only diagrammatic visuals - no real photos other than microscopic, more emphasis on healthy growth and body care with management of the moods that go with it, and teachers stressed that no contraception method is foolproof), I told her to pay close attention to the birth-control method stats. They show that the only way to be sure not to get pregnant is to not have sex or simulate it (don’t want gory details). It was gratifying to hear that she was annoyed and disgusted with contemporary “teen” stereotypes and culture and the assumption that teens can’t control themselves. She actually said that “Sex is reproduction, so don’t go there if you don’t want to reproduce!”

-mdr

 

[debraran]

My twin daughters are like that too…always tell me how immoral some kids are (even some I thought would be nice friends) They show me facebook photos of girls that parents think are angels doing things angels wouldn’t think of! They don’t want to know about birth control at school and told thier doctor last year not to give them that shot for HPV.
What they do worry about and it’s a real thing, is how our economy and life styles are changing. We are hanging on by a thread some weeks, everything goes toward the gas bill elec. bill, food, we haven’t had a vacation in years (they are 16 and never flew anywhere) but a Catholic education up to 8th grade was a sacrifice and now public school is something they are slowly adjusting too. (10,000 a year each was too much for high school)
College is going to be tough and I worry about the loans my son has. Having many children can be wonderful but it can also carry with it much stress and cause problems with some couples. When I read bad posts about NFP it usually has couples fighting over when, how and “what if”.Birth control with it’s failings give a psuedo or real feeling of control over your bodies changing patterns. A diaphram during a “safe” time can still fail of course, but they feel they at least tried their best not to add to an already stressed marriage or money problem.
I have read about couples that try all the NFP methods and they don’t work for them. Maybe it’s them, maybe not, but bringing children into the world is a big responsibility, not something to you shouldn’t have any control over except through abstinence. I have read differing opinions from many research hospitals, most in the ball park of what I stated, but you’re right, nothing is 100% even sterilization. That goes for STD’s too.
I would like to think you can put it all in God’s hands, but in every other instance you have to do things also. Biology in most cases (except infertile couples) says when a sperm meets an egg, pregnancy can happen. It happens with teenagers, it happens with adults, older adults, married, single and without sex. Babies usually come the same way, you have to take some responsibiltiy for it and not just say it was meant to be. I hope you would love it and want it, but you have to say it was YOUR responsibilty also. I wish all children were wanted and with parents but that is not to be. Men and women will still have unmarried sex and get pregnant, men will still leave their wives and have children elsewhere, teens will get pregnant, some will use sperm banks and some of them will say it was God’s will. Again responsibility before AND during marriage is expected.

I hope our children can fight the secular culture and find great spouses if that was meant to be. My hubby is fine, but I wasn’t the way I am now 25 years ago so I can’t expect him to suddenly feel the same way I do now. We got bad advice and still managed to plod along okay most of the time.

Right now, I can see the beauty of NFP with supporting spouses but if someone told me they were using NFP with barrier methods in their peri-menopause years during the safer times for extra measure, I wouldn’t judge them either.