Bishop Barron's "privileged route" to salvation?

[goout]

I love Bishop Barron. His talks and homilies are always orthodox and thought provoking. He frequently appeals to the Catholic intellectual and philosophical tradition and finds clarity of thought. I find that I am required to think a little more deeply (repent?) when listening to him.

 

[fhansen]

Catholics are privileged especially because we have the “knowledge of God” in its fullness, at least to the extent that we need it here on earth. And this gives us the means to communion with Him, which man was made for. And then we have the tools to maintain and strengthen that communion. But the Church has consistently taught that some people will have less knowledge, and are therefore less culpable for their level of faith in, hope in, and love for God.

 

[Magnanimity]

The OP quotes Bishop Barron as stating, “Vatican II clearly teaches that someone outside the Christian Faith can be saved.” So, your claim that “Again, faith in Christ before judgment is necessary for salvation” is seemingly at odds with the Bishop’s statement, unless (again) you simply mean in an ultimate sense all faith given to any and all people, irrespective of their religion, has God’s grace as the source and cause of the faith. Which, as I said, is true enough. Nevertheless, from the Muslim’s perspective, the proximate cause of his salvation is his Muslim faith, even though in an ultimate sense, God’s grace is extended to the Muslim, which is the primary cause of his salvation, as “God desires that all men be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth” (not just the men who have access to the privileged route of Christianity).

This is not relativism, which would preclude any faith being “privileged,” and would entail that they are all on a par with each other…

 

[Genesis315]

I don’t think Bishop Barron was saying that, nor anybody on this thread.

He literally says someone “outside the Christian faith” can be saved.

Maybe he meant currently outside the Christian faith or not yet of the Christian faith. He was put on the spot and so maybe this was just a poorly worded answer.

(as an aside, with regard to your prior post, only those who have been baptized can be said to have even partial communion with the Church–of course all people have some relationship to the Church, since God willed to call all to that destiny).

 

[Genesis315]

The OP quotes Bishop Barron as stating, “Vatican II clearly teaches that someone outside the Christian Faith can be saved.” So, your claim that “Again, faith in Christ before judgment is necessary for salvation” is seemingly at odds with the Bishop’s statement, unless (again) you simply mean in an ultimate sense all faith given to any and all people, irrespective of their religion, has God’s grace as the source and cause of the faith. Which, as I said, is true enough. Nevertheless, from the Muslim’s perspective, the proximate cause of his salvation is his Muslim faith, even though in an ultimate sense, God’s grace is extended to the Muslim, which is the primary cause of his salvation, as “God desires that all men be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth” (not just the men who have access to the privileged route of Christianity).

This is not relativism, which would preclude any faith being “privileged,” and would entail that they are all on a par with each other…

This is why I think Bishop Barron’s quote–if interpreted as you have–is at odds with what the Church teaches and has always taught as found in Scripture and Tradition. Without faith is is impossible to please God. Muslim belief is not faith (see Dominus Iesus in my post above).

What the Church does teach–including explicitly at Vatican II (in the decree Ad Gentes)–is that God can lead those who are properly disposed to that necessary faith. As the previously quoted passage from St. Robert Bellarmine noted, this may be done through men, angels, or even by God Himself.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

You are correct on the “communion” point, I shouldn’t have used that word. The Catechism makes clear that there is some relationship to the Church though with the Jewish people and Muslims as we all worship the God of Abraham.

I took the Bishop’s statement to mean that the person was currently outside the Christian faith. Ben Shapiro was using himself, a Jewish person, as the example. Ben is Orthodox Jewish and therefore outside the Christian faith currently.

If they haven’t converted by the time they die, then presumably if they’re going to Heaven, they would convert upon death. I have been told by a priest that this is possible. Obviously, in Christ’s Heaven, everybody is Christian, regardless of what they were on earth.

 

[goout]

Tis_Bearself:

I don’t think Bishop Barron was saying that, nor anybody on this thread.

He literally says someone “outside the Christian faith” can be saved.

Maybe he meant currently outside the Christian faith or not yet of the Christian faith. He was put on the spot and so maybe this was just a poorly worded answer.

(as an aside, with regard to your prior post, only those who have been baptized can be said to have even partial communion with the Church–of course all people have some relationship to the Church, since God willed to call all to that destiny).

Your position assumes one thing: that Bp Barron does not really know the Church’s teaching well. That defies belief (pun intended).

If you read his words with the assumption that he understands the material, there’s nothing here whatsoever.

 

[Magnanimity]

Right, so I’m not entirely sure if we’re splitting hairs here or if the distinctions that you and I are trying to draw make much of a difference. But I have been trying to illustrate that Bishop Barron (and myself and you and all faithful Catholics) would all see faith as necessary for salvation. All of us would further see God as the source/cause of any faith that any human ever possesses anywhere.

But, I suppose you want to push the point further and state that this saving faith must be explicitly/consciously expressed with Christ as the object of the faith in the mind/heart of the believer. And, without this explicit/conscious understanding of Christ and without him as the explicit/conscious object of the faith then salvation cannot occur.

If this is what you’re claiming then yes, I’d say you’re at odds with the clear teaching of a conciliar dogmatic constitution (LG). But, I would grant your point that contemporary documents of lesser “weight” can be read to support your belief, and there are no doubt a lot of Catholics that hold your view. And I would claim that there has been a development of doctrine on this issue. For example, St Augustine’s mass damnata doctrine is probably more in line with your beliefs than with Bishop Barron’s (and mine) and with LG, 16. The problem is that a contemporary mind has to do quite a bit of mental gymnastics with LG, 16 to come away from it with a belief that salvation is only possible when a person has explicit/conscious understanding of Christ, and without Christ as the explicit/conscious object of the faith then salvation cannot occur. Again, the “Saviour wills that all men be saved” (LG, 16). All, not merely those in the privileged position to have been able to consciously respond to the gospel.

 

[dochawk]

St. Robert Bellarmine, in the 16th century) explained how God might lead one following an upright conscience to that necessary faith, in response to Protestants who said that the existence of non-Christians in far off lands means Christ does not offer salvation to all:

And if Bellarmine is “too liberal” for someone’s theology . . . [*shudder*]

He was one of the great stars of the counter-reformation. It’s rather tough to out-orthodox him on Catholic theology . . .

hawk

 

[CelticWarlord]

while there is only one way to be saved, people come onto that narrow road in many ways.

Well said. If I may add a quote, whose authorship I cannot recall, “Jesus is the only way to salvation. This does not mean everyone who is saved needs to have heard about it”. In addition, Bishop Barron himself has said in his Catholicism series, episode 6 I believe, that God has insinuated himself into every nook and cranny in the human experience. People cannot fail to find Him, though many may never realize they have made the connection.

 

[ontheway1]

Ben Shapiro is a commentator, a lawyer and a formidable debater. I have heard him debate a number of people, and have heard an analysis of his debating style. He is all but impossible to out-debate. I have not seen the debate in question here, but judging by what I have seen of Shapiro, he would find it easy to present irrefutable arguments against anyone. I have a lot of respect of Fr. Barron, but I would venture a guess that during the debate he was skillfully maneuvered into a corner and used the “privileged route” argument for lack of a better explanation.
I could very well be wrong on this, of course.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I don’t think Ben was debating the bishop, or trying to poke holes in Catholicism. I thought it was just an interview.

Ben no doubt realizes his own fan base contains loads of Catholics.

 

[otjm]

I think the Church might qualify that a bit, and I would refer to a comment by bishop Sheen: (and this is certainly not the exact quote) No one hates the Catholic Church; they hate what they think is the Catholic Church.

Ultimately the matter is up to God and the individual, and we do well to keep that in mind. I sort of have a hard time thinking the Thief on the Cross was wholeheartedly accepting what we consider to be the Catholic Church. However, that he accepted responsibility for his actions and repented is clear.

We have no further information as to the thief; we do not know if he ever had any contact with Christ, nor even if he was Jewish. We only know he repented and was saved.

 

[leonhardprintz]

I would be quite sympathetic to views like that as well. I have in mind more myself, that if I turn away from the Catholic Church out of spite, or because of a rule that prevents me from living in certain ways, then even if I enter a protestant community and be otherwise - in the eyes of anyone else - devout, I have no doubt that I would be damned.

 

[anon48198893]

So, let me ask this question. What is Bishop Barron’s responsibility to preach Christ?