Bishop makes case for peace at all costs (Gumbleton)

[stumbler]

By Clayton Hardiman
CHRONICLE STAFF WRITER
Wednesday, May 18, 2005

Bishop Thomas J. Gumbleton stood before several hundred listeners in Grand Haven’s St. Patrick’s Catholic Church Tuesday night to adopt a zero-tolerance approach to hatred and violence.

Gumbleton, founding president of the Catholic peace organization Pax Christi USA, said Christians must be radical voices for peace.

“Never again war,” Gumbleton said, quoting the popes John Paul II and Paul VI. "No, never again war.

“I hope I can persuade all of us we have to make that cry our own.”

Gumbleton, who has traveled numerous times to Iraq and other hot spots around the globe in the name of peace, drew a standing ovation from the crowd at St. Patrick’s Church.

But his address clearly raised troubling questions in the minds of some listeners, one of whom questioned at length his statements about violence and war.

“Realistically, can we hold a case for a righteous war?” asked one member of the audience.

And another audience member argued vociferously that there are times war may be necessary, as in the circumstances leading to World War II and in cases when a dictator like former Iraqi President Saddam Hussein persecutes his own people.

“Do you sit back and let the persecution happen when you have the power to stop it?” the audience member asked.

Even then, Gumbleton continued to call for a culture of peace.

“We have to say no to the way of war. That’s the only thing I can say, and trust that the way of Jesus will bring peace.”

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Full article

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Not sure if this article goes here or in “Ecclesia Mundi” forum.

Gumbleton makes his case for pacifism I guess.

 

[fix]

Objection: Did not Jesus teach nonviolence? Turn other cheek; if your cloak is demanded give your shirt too? 1) He Himself at His trial before Annas was struck in the face by a guard. Instead of turning the other cheek, He rebuked them all (John 18:23): “If I have spoken wrongly, testify to the wrong; but if I have spoken rightly, why do you strike me?”

          2) St. Thomas is right in quoting the interpretation given by St. Augustine to the nonviolent texts (*Summa* II. II. 40. 1. ad 2):

“These precepts are always to be observed in attitude of mind, namely, that a man should always be prepared not to resist… but at times one must act otherwise because of the common good… . Hence Augustine says… nothing is more unhappy than the happiness of sinners, in that impunity is nourished, and an evil will is strengthened” (Augustine, On the Sermon on the Mount 1. 19; Epistle 138. 2. 14).

           3) While a private person should take the nonviolent *attitude*, and at suitable times act on it as well, a state is in a different case. It has no right to abandon its obligation to defend its citizens, using moral means of course.

catholicculture.org/docs/most/getwork.cfm?worknum=142

 

[Benedictus]

I’m not in the Bishop Gumbleton fanclub. Quite the opposite really. I would like to point out that many orthodox people have questioned whether a just war is possible anymore. Cardinal Ottaviani was one, and so is Cardinal Ratzinger/Pope Benedict.

Cardinal Ratzinger, Zenit interview, May 3, 2003:

To say nothing of the fact that, given the new weapons that make possible destructions that go beyond the combatant groups, today we should be asking ourselves if it is still licit to admit the very existence of a “just war.”

 

[fix]

Benedictus:

I’m not in the Bishop Gumbleton fanclub. Quite the opposite really. I would like to point out that many orthodox people have questioned whether a just war is possible anymore. Cardinal Ottaviani was one, and so is Cardinal Ratzinger/Pope Benedict.

Cardinal Ratzinger, Zenit interview, May 3, 2003:

Defense is always legitimate, no?

 

[vern_humphrey]

fix:

Defense is always legitimate, no?

As I have pointed out many times, Christ told us when someone slaps us on one cheek, turn the other.

He did NOT tell us when someone rapes and murders your wife, stand by and allow them to do likewise with your daughter.

 

[newf]

I think Bishop Gumbleton should take his show over to Iraq. Maybe he could preach his message to the insurgents who are bombing the innocent people over there.

 

[vern_humphrey]

newf:

I think Bishop Gumbleton should take his show over to Iraq. Maybe he could preach his message to the insurgents who are bombing the innocent people over there.

Maybe he could tell the survivors of those Catholic churches that were bombed that they have no right to ask for government protection – after all, that’s using FORCE!!

 

[Joe_Kelley]

In view of Bishop Gumbleton"s great respect for the words of JPII, has he yet responded to his order that bishops submit their retirement at age 75?

Did you ever notice how much he looks like Phil Silvers [Sgt Bilko] ?

 

[JW10631]

I don’t buy into Pax Christi’s message. They have turned Christ into a pacifist.

No more war - ever? I do not agree.

 

[theTaxCollector]

The Church must always, always preach peace. After all, when 2 countries fight against each other, in many cases, Christians might be fighting against one another. In addition, the Church should not be mingling too closely in political affairs.

That being said, ‘peace at all costs’ usually will amount to ‘war in a few years’. While the Church should never prescribe war, it needs to recognize (and it does) that occasionally war is required.

As a matter of fact, most wars throughout time amounted to a ‘bad guy’ that needed to be stopped. With no checks on the ‘bad guy’, evil may well have won out centuries ago.

Peace.

 

[Benedictus]

fix:

Defense is always legitimate, no?

Not always. Paragraph 2309 of the new Catechism outlines the conditions for a just war. It may be that fighting a defensive war would not meet all the conditions. For example, there may be no serious prospect of success, or fighting the war may cause greater harm and greater loss of life than the defensive war would avoid. The latter case may be what His Holiness had in mind.

I don’t think that all wars are unjust, but I do think that most wars are.

 

[Benedictus]

theTaxCollector:

That being said, ‘peace at all costs’ usually will amount to ‘war in a few years’. While the Church should never prescribe war, it needs to recognize (and it does) that occasionally war is required.

I agree with the first part. Appeasement in the 1930s was exactly that.

I don’t agree that the Church should never prescribe war. The Church has done so in the past, esp. with the first three crusades, which I think had a just cause even though the way they were waged was very far from perfect.

 

[fix]

Benedictus:

Not always. Paragraph 2309 of the new Catechism outlines the conditions for a just war. It may be that fighting a defensive war would not meet all the conditions. For example, there may be no serious prospect of success, or fighting the war may cause greater harm and greater loss of life than the defensive war would avoid. The latter case may be what His Holiness had in mind.

I don’t think that all wars are unjust, but I do think that most wars are.

Apparently Bishop Gumbelton disagress with the CCC?

 

[tpw]

And can you give examples of where Christ used violence - against other persons? Even the dramatic scene of the expulsion of the money lenders from the Temple illustrates Christ overturning property and challenging people. No where did he use violence against other persons.

You have probably not fought in a war. Perhaps it would be a good education for you to read Chris Hedges (Harvard MDiv Graduate and former correspondent for the NY Times who covered wars in El Salvador, Bosnia and Iraq) book War is A Force That Give Us Meaning. Though Hedges doesn’t describe himself as a pacifist he does a magnificent job exploring how war and the call to war involves distortions and misrepresentations.

What Bishop Gumbleton said only echoes what Paul VI and JP II said when speaking at the UN…

I don’t buy into Pax Christi’s message. They have turned Christ into a pacifist.

No more war - ever? I do not agree.

 

[tpw]

So the Dresden fire bombings, the atomic attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were legitimate? Where is the proportionality in modern warfare? Talk of defense becomes ludicrous in the face of modern weapons of mass destruction - chemical, biological, atomic and so forth…Got to do the hard work and find alternatives…otherwise the 21st century will be as bad as the 20th century…

Defense is always legitimate, no?

 

[Ignatius]

“Never again war,” Gumbleton said, quoting the popes John Paul II and Paul VI. "No, never again war.

“I hope I can persuade all of us we have to make that cry our own.”
.

His quote is taken out of context. Peace at all costs is contrary to Catholic teaching.

 

[JimG]

Bishop Gumbleton is hardly a good spokesman for Catholic morality. He has been requested by several other bishops not to enter their diocese for speaking engagements.

Perhaps in making the case for peace, the bishop ought to pursue a zero tolerance policy on abortion, and use Mother Teresa’s quotes, such as “If you want peace, work for life,” and “the fruit of abortion is nuclear war.”

catholicnewsagency.com/news/bishop_sample_explains_decision_to_ask_bishop_gumbleton_not_to_visit_diocese/

lifesitenews.com/ldn/2007/jan/07013106.html

 

[Joe_Kelley]

Saw a bumper sticker in the church parking lot last week;

**If you can read this, thank a teacher.

If you are reading it in English, thank a veteran.**

 

[tpw]

While the World Wars of the 20th century and the soldiers who fought in them clearly remain embedded in the memories of millions of people - and rightfully so - no sane person supports or relishes war. It seems those who are most likely to promote war are those who’ve never actually fought in them (hence Bush-Cheney and now sadly Obama - although unlike Bush-Cheney he explored many, many options short of deploying troops to Afghanistan and was castigated by the conservative media for "indecisiveness)

More thoughtful people including many in our churches have realized how abysmally horrible war has become throughout the end of the 19th and 20th centuries. The “advances” (sic) in modern technology have made war more and more absurd and a source of terror for civilians and soldiers alike.

While the World Wars were being fought in the 20th centuy those who witnessed them or were forced to make decisions about them have assidously sought to find other means to solve international conflicts.

1. The founding of the UN is one imperfect example, but there are many other civilian-based alternatives now developed or developing. These include
2. the development of the International Criminal Court which hears cases involving crimes against humanity involves leaders of countries;
3. the exploration of using different forms of sanctions against serious aggressors;
4. placing international constraints on banking and capital owned by especially egregious national leaders or terrorists;
5. the development of a new field called peace studies which carries on multi-disciplinary critical studies of factors which contribute to war with the hope of short-circuiting spirals of violence which lead to war;
6. the growing revcognition of Conscientious Objector status (see the recent canonization of Franz Jagerstatter for his refusal to fight on behalf of Hitler’s Nazi Germany over the objections of his bishop and a chaplain);
7. efforts at inter-religous dialogue as promoted by the church and embodied in efforts like that of JP II’s Assisi gathering in 1986 where religious leaders were encouraged to agree that religious bodies would not be used to promote violence;
8. programs which seek to introduce international bodies of students and young adults to each other with the hope that encouraging friendship between different people may reduce the possibility of violent conflict between countries;
9. the work of people like Greg Morgenson (Three Cups of Tea) who sought to build healthy relations with Muslims by building schools in rural villages;

all these are a few examples of efforts to find alternatives to war.

While conflict is inevitable, war is not necessarily so. May we be thankful and respect the work of people like Bishop Gumbleton who are usually victimized by so-called “realists” who see violence and war as the only answer to conflict.

Peace of Christ be With You,
tpw