Blaming it all on Vatican II?

[agr4028]

I read countless threads here, bashing Vatican II as the alleged downfall of the Catholic Church.

I also read numerous posts, that articulate quite clearly, that other factors within the Church and society could have impact as well, but these are brushed asided to further the cause of “Bad, Vatican II, Bad…”

What about Humanae Vitae? How many people left the Church over that one? Or, better yet, how many are still in the Church, but ignore the part about NFP/ABC?

What about TV? We aren’t exactly watching Marcus Welby MD, anymore.

What about mass media manipulation? What about technology?

What about prayer being booted out of schools? What about everything being open on Sundays when they all used to be closed?

It hardly seems likely that Vatican II is the root cause of society’s ills, or any “crisis” within the Catholic Church.

There are nine Catholic Churches, run by seven parishes within 35 miles of my home. They are all in good shape, with steady congregations and obvious growth.

Within that radius, I have perpetual adoration, Life Teen, one new church under construction, Mass in english or spanish, Little Rock scripture study, the list goes on and on.

So, is there really a crisis at all? And, if there is one, it seems that trying to lay all the blame at the feet of Vatican II is a tad self-serving for those with a personal agenda.

 

[wraithx]

agr4028: I don’t blame everything on Vatican II but I do think that the so called “spirit of Vatican II” is to blame for a lot of problems in the Church right now - even the Pope has said that this false spirit has caused much harm. The Vatican statistics on Mass attendance and the number of Catholics leaving the Church show us that something seriously bad is happening.

I certainly have no agenda - but I can’t ignore the facts I see before my eyes. I believe that we are now on the cusp of the restoration of the Church through Pope Benedict XVI, so I would say that we should worry less about these things we can’t influence, and worry about our own salvation - starting with switching off the TV - because you are right, the majority of stuff on TV is filthy and unholy.

 

[Miles_Mariae]

Life Teen is not what many would call a good sign.

Otherwise, you make some reasonable points. I certainly would not blame Vatican II for all our troubles, but rather the Progressive mindset that may have been enabled by the hijacking of post-V2 “reforms”.

 

[agr4028]

agr4028: I don’t blame everything on Vatican II but I do think that the so called “spirit of Vatican II” is to blame for a lot of problems in the Church right now - even the Pope has said that this false spirit has caused much harm. The Vatican statistics on Mass attendance and the number of Catholics leaving the Church show us that something seriously bad is happening.

I certainly have no agenda - but I can’t ignore the facts I see before my eyes. I believe that we are now on the cusp of the restoration of the Church through Pope Benedict XVI, so I would say that we should worry less about these things we can’t influence, and worry about our own salvation - starting with switching off the TV - because you are right, the majority of stuff on TV is filthy and unholy.

Thank goodness for baseball season, I can blow the dust off my tv and turn it back on

 

[harrisunt]

Life Teen is not what many would call a good sign.

Teenagers in church… OH THE HUMANITY!

Just realized I posted this in the Traditional Forum where everything besides Latin and chant is considered an abomination.

 

[scylla]

Teenagers in church… OH THE HUMANITY!

Just realized I posted this in the Traditional Forum where everything besides Latin and chant is considered an abomination.

I believe the problem is not teenagers in Church, that is a strawman. Nobody believes that is wrong, what most object to is the horrid way many Lifeteen Masses degrade into entertainment and disrespect for Jesus.

We should always put Jesus and respect for God as first at Mass, unfortunately some Lifeteen Masses have been focused on entertaining the people instead.

God Bless
Scylla

 

[agr4028]

I believe the problem is not teenagers in Church, that is a strawman. Nobody believes that is wrong, what most object to is the horrid way many Lifeteen Masses degrade into entertainment and disrespect for Jesus.

We should always put Jesus and respect for God as first at Mass, unfortunately some Lifeteen Masses have been focused on entertaining the people instead.

God Bless
Scylla

I have attended a number of Life Teen Masses, all at the same parish. Though I’m not crazy about the music, I didn’t see a thing that was inappropriate, or that constituted “liturgical abuse”.

And, heaven knows, I’ve had plenty of training to spot “abuse”, from reading this site.

 

[scylla]

You are blessed to have experienced the good, I was giving examples of what people are complaining about. The bad.

I was responding to the post implying that some people are against teenagers at Church. People object to the Mass being done with irreverence and insulting to Christ.

Be glad you don’t see abuse, you are blessed.

God Bless
Scylla

 

[rwoehmke]

Would you all say that Vatican II or its spirit is the root cause of Post Modernism. I labor under the impression that a lot of ills in our society and our Church, Relativism if you will, are a result of Post Modernism. Poor old Vatican II or its spirit gets blamed for almost everything some Catholics don’t like.

 

[Spiller]

I read countless threads here, bashing Vatican II as the alleged downfall of the Catholic Church.

I also read numerous posts, that articulate quite clearly, that other factors within the Church and society could have impact as well, but these are brushed asided to further the cause of “Bad, Vatican II, Bad…”

What about Humanae Vitae? How many people left the Church over that one? Or, better yet, how many are still in the Church, but ignore the part about NFP/ABC?

What about TV? We aren’t exactly watching Marcus Welby MD, anymore.

What about mass media manipulation? What about technology?

What about prayer being booted out of schools? What about everything being open on Sundays when they all used to be closed?

It hardly seems likely that Vatican II is the root cause of society’s ills, or any “crisis” within the Catholic Church.

There are nine Catholic Churches, run by seven parishes within 35 miles of my home. They are all in good shape, with steady congregations and obvious growth.

Within that radius, I have perpetual adoration, Life Teen, one new church under construction, Mass in english or spanish, Little Rock scripture study, the list goes on and on.

So, is there really a crisis at all? And, if there is one, it seems that trying to lay all the blame at the feet of Vatican II is a tad self-serving for those with a personal agenda.

VC2 is a gift from the Church. It’s wonderful. Sadly, it was often poorly implemented during a particularly septic period of the 20th century.

VC2 does not deserve the blame – it’s more of a scapegoat than anything else.

 

[HelenRose]

VC2 is a gift from the Church. It’s wonderful. Sadly, it was often poorly implemented during a particularly septic period of the 20th century.

VC2 does not deserve the blame – it’s more of a scapegoat than anything else.

It is impossible to know what would have happened if there had not been Vatican II. Those who blame Vatican II for problems believe that it created all the problems of the Church. Those of us who see it as a wonderful gift believe that Vatican II saved our wonderful Catholic Church. Neither view can be proven because we can not go back and walk down a different road.

God is the only one who can determine what the cause and effect of this event was in the lives of Catholics.

I am willing to leave all of this in the hands of our Pope and the Magisterium. Thank the Most Gracious Heavenly Father that I don’t have to decide.

As long as I can go to either the TLM or the NO forms of the Mass and receive the Blessed Body and Blood of our Lord, I am content in His love.

 

[johnnykins]

It was not so much that VII, per se, was bad as distorted and poor;y implemented.

See this site for the documents of VII:
ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/V2ALL.HTM

Start reading the documents and compare them to what happened. Latin has most certainly been “preserved” - like some ancient artifact for examination in a museum. Somehow I don’t think that’s what the council had in mind. the examples are many.

BTW the catch phrase is the “Spirit of Vatican II” even those who have distorted VII knew it was not the council decrees that allowed the abuse and called for such wholesale changes and related apostasy.

 

[rinnie]

I read countless threads here, bashing Vatican II as the alleged downfall of the Catholic Church.

I also read numerous posts, that articulate quite clearly, that other factors within the Church and society could have impact as well, but these are brushed asided to further the cause of “Bad, Vatican II, Bad…”

What about Humanae Vitae? How many people left the Church over that one? Or, better yet, how many are still in the Church, but ignore the part about NFP/ABC?

What about TV? We aren’t exactly watching Marcus Welby MD, anymore.

What about mass media manipulation? What about technology?

What about prayer being booted out of schools? What about everything being open on Sundays when they all used to be closed?

It hardly seems likely that Vatican II is the root cause of society’s ills, or any “crisis” within the Catholic Church.

There are nine Catholic Churches, run by seven parishes within 35 miles of my home. They are all in good shape, with steady congregations and obvious growth.

Within that radius, I have perpetual adoration, Life Teen, one new church under construction, Mass in english or spanish, Little Rock scripture study, the list goes on and on.

So, is there really a crisis at all? And, if there is one, it seems that trying to lay all the blame at the feet of Vatican II is a tad self-serving for those with a personal agenda.

I have to say i do agree with you alot. I am going to throw another twist on this, yes i agree it may have not worked like it should have right? Now wait a minute or did it. How many people left the church? Okay but now every day how many are comming back? Many and they are comming back as better Catholics, and stronger. So maybe it wasnt as bad as we think. MORE AND MORE PEOPLE ARE COMMING BACK TODAY, THEY LEFT AND FOUND OUT THE TRUTH. SO MAYBE JUST MAYBE THIS WAS GODS WAY OF SHOWING THEM WHAT THEY HAD. YOU KNOW THE SAYING YOU DONT KNOW WHAT YOU GOT TILL YOU LOSE IT. YOU JUST GIVE THE GOOD LORD TIME, ITS GOING TO WORK OUT YET. SPEAKING FOR MYSELF IT NEVER TOOK ME AWAY FROM THE CHURCH JUST MADE ME STRONGER. CATHOLICS ARE COMMING BACK TODAY MORE THAN EVER. AND IT WILL CONTINUE. STATISTICS ARE SHOWING THIS. GOD BLESS

 

[scylla]

I don’t know about this line of reasoning, I left the Church and was quite sinful.
I did end up coming back stronger and faithful but I am not so sure if the evil that I did can be anything but wrong.
God does allow good to come out of evil but I personally wish I would have been faithful the whole time, my past sins continue to haunt me now.

Just like the sins of the 60’s 70’s and 80’s continue to haunt us right now. It is not like the time directly after Vatican II was a golden era of the Church.
Of course I will argue good has come out of Vatican II, I see really nothing wrong with Vatican II just what people did in the spirit of Vatican II. EWTN or Catholic Answers can be called a fruit of Vatican II.

God Bless
Scylla

 

[agr4028]

VC2 does not deserve the blame – it’s more of a scapegoat than anything else.

And that may well be the case, as I feel it to be as well.

V2 did not give us the inundation of “t and a” television in the 70’s.

V2 did not throw prayer out of public schools.

V2 did not pass out condoms to teenagers in public schools.

V2 did not introduce pedophilia into the priesthood.

V2 did not put R rated language on practically every tv show.

V2 did not tell us that it was ok to open our businesses and work on Sunday.

I think you get the picture. I, like so many of you, have watched our society regress into a moral cesspool. And, it didn’t all happen at the hand of post-V2 Catholics.

Catholics are part of society too. They are subject to all the same temptations and evils that non-Catholics are subject to. There is a whole lot more to the moral decay in America in the last 40 years than how Catholics receive Communion, what language Mass is said in, or whether or not the gals cover their heads when they go to Church.

:twocents:

 

[bengal_fan]

You are blessed to have experienced the good, I was giving examples of what people are complaining about. The bad.

but we always have to remember that the “bad” is really based in the eye of the beholder. one person could think something is bad while the other 99 think it is good. who do you think you will hear from? i will tell you, the person who thinks it is bad.

 

[harrisunt]

I believe the problem is not teenagers in Church, that is a strawman. Nobody believes that is wrong, what most object to is the horrid way many Lifeteen Masses degrade into entertainment and disrespect for Jesus.

We should always put Jesus and respect for God as first at Mass, unfortunately some Lifeteen Masses have been focused on entertaining the people instead.

God Bless
Scylla

My response was in the blanket statement that LifeTeen was not a “good thing”. LifeTeen is a wonderful program that I am glad to be a part of. The young adults are as reverent if not more reverent than their adult counterparts.

The issue is not with the LifeTeen program, but with abuses that could be found at any other mass.

 

[JReducation]

Life Teen is not what many would call a good sign.

Otherwise, you make some reasonable points. I certainly would not blame Vatican II for all our troubles, but rather the Progressive mindset that may have been enabled by the hijacking of post-V2 “reforms”.

I don’t know where you live, but in our parish the Life Teen group fills up a church that sits 1,000 people every Sunday night. It was through Life Teen that my Jewish son converted to Catholicism.

JR

 

[Joe17]

Well, as we all know, it is original sin that got it all going. Anyway, if one looks into what VII taught concerning religous liberty, the consitution on the church and similiar documents, and, given the fact that VII endorsed and encouraged ecumenical gatherings(or other religions recognizing Christ), just as example, something which was condemned by the teaching of the Church since her founding(read Mortalium Animos by Pius XI), one has to consider, if one is objective, that VII got the ball rolling. By their fruits you will know them. Please read when you can St Pius X’s encyclical Pascendi(1907) which explains Modernism and that a modernist can write Catholic on one page and heresy on the next. He did his best to weed them out, but the devil bid his time and made inroads later.
It is a deep read, but it is a SAFE read! As is Mortalium Animos and other pre- John XXIII writings. Remember, Vatican I teaches that the Papal office was not instituted to give novel doctrines, but to safeguard and handdown the teachings of the Apostles. Let us all do our best to learn the faith in order to live the faith.

 

[stmaria]

There is no denying that the priest shortage began after Vatican II and Mass attendance began to go down. Was this due to a change in the values of Society or Vatican II? If it were a change in society then I suspect that the Eastern Catholics should have also seen a decline in the priesthood and in attendance. Did this happen? Maybe someone from the East could comment. This social change should have affected the Protestants as well in the 60’s and 70’s.
The Church changed drasticly after Vatican II
The "Spirit of the Council " is really a toleration of error. Protestants are no longer to be called heretics, Islam is held in esteem, pagan religions such as Hinduism and Buddhism are praised as containing truth and holiness, the Jews do not need to accept Christ to be saved, heritical theologians that deny the dogma of Papal Infallibility and the Resurrection, teach in favor of artificial birth control are not excommunicated.
Consider Pope Paul VI speech to the National Federation of Schools July 9,1969
“ We will have, therefore, a period in the life of the Church, and consequently in that of each of its children, of greater liberty, that is of fewer legal obligations and internal inhibitions. The former discipline will be reduce, arbitrary intolerance and despotism abolished, the prevailing laws simplified, and the exercise of authority tempered.”

This toleration of error became so wide spread in the seminaries that in 1981 Pope John Paul ordered studies of the seminaries in the United States. The visitation team was know as the “Marshall Committee” Instead of teaching from the traditional sources of the Church these seminaries were teaching the theology of Rahner, Conger and Kung and Curran.

This tolerance for error became so bad that Pope John Paul ordered that anyone teaching at a Catholic University had to swear on an oath that they would be true to the teachings of the church.

PROFESSION OF FAITH and THE OATH OF FIDELITY
ON ASSUMING AN OFFICE TO BE EXERCISED IN THE NAME OF THE CHURCH-1998
ewtn.com/library/CURIA/cdfoath.htm

The “Spirit of the Council” also tolerated evil. The homosexual seminaries were known and tolerated. Good men were being denied admission to the seminaries in favor of those who would be prone to immorality.

It is no accident that only 25% of Catholics attend Church each Sunday, that less than 40% believe in the True Physical Presence of Christ, that confession is a forgotten sacrament. that divorce and remarriage has steadly increased.
The “Spirit of the Council” tolerance for error has spread to the laity via lax priests with watered down homilies that are designed not to offend.